Sinless Perfection

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I guess you can't answer my questions?

OK, what is going on Proverbs 18:6? Please read it in the ESV and get back to me. Also is Jesus committing sin in Mark 16:14? Again please explain the Greek usage of ὀνειδίζω in the verse. Also used in these verses, Matthew 5:11, Matthew 11:20, Matthew 27:44, Mark 15:32, Luke 6:22, Romans 15:3, James 1:5, Hebrews 10:33.

Myself feeling better or bad isn't close to feeling sad concerning how people were told the Bible instead of taught the Bible.

I think it is a shame when people use the example of Jesus upbraiding the disciples and others, and biblical NT rebuke, as an excuse to personally rail on and personally insult others on internet forums wherein people of many different ideas should be able to come forward to have open discussion.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If sinless perfection merely means "spiritual maturity", and that spiritual maturity is one in which one still occasionally sins, is that truly "sinless perfection"? Is this a misnomer for the doctrine?

Occasionally sins? I was with another minister who was from this area and he got into a discussion with an individual in a Bible book store about this topic. They were both going back and forth concerning the subject when the owner of the book store interjected on the guy who said that people will always occasionally sin. The owner of the book store told the guy that his focus was already on the wrong thing. That his focus was on "sin" instead of Jesus Christ. Therefore he was already shooting himself in the foot. Walk in the light as He is in the light, Ephesians 5:15 look at the ESV, the apostle is telling you to be careful how you live, that is our focus, to keep our eyes and mind on Christ being led by the Spirit, not by our carnal minds. Proverbs 15:21 speaks of using wisdom to walk straight and upright, which can only be achieved by following the Holy Ghost. No Holy Ghost no holiness. You can love people all you want, and you will find that your idea of loving is diametrically opposed to God's idea. Therefore Ephesians 5:17 explain that we must be wise concerning God's will. It isn't our will, but God's will be done Luke 22:42 . Micheal and later Apostolic1nes point out that when a true repentant heart is worked out in someone's life it will cause a person to take sin very seriously. It isn't achieved through human discipline but through Spiritual Holy Ghost renewing through the discipline of Christ in us, the hope of glory.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think it is a shame when people use the example of Jesus upbraiding the disciples and others, and biblical NT rebuke, as an excuse to personally rail on and personally insult others on internet forums wherein people of many different ideas should be able to come forward to have open discussion.

Aquila, how about please answering my two questions?

There are a slew of other examples, but I think the ones I presented are enough. Also, bro you have never been railed on. Do you believe that there is a difference between neophyte, and seasoned devotee in religion?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Do you believe smoking cigarettes is a sin?

If so, why?

Chris, no Christians through history ever believed the smoking, sniffing, or chewing of tobacco was bad, until recent history. Again, the issue here would be gluttony, meaning usage in excess. If a guy is smoking a cigar, cigarette, pipe, chewing it, spitting it, and sniffing it. I can find as much scripture against it as I can find against wearing a beard. Now, I can give my opinion on what I think culturally, and health wise what those items will cause the user, but I can't say he or she is going to bust hell wide for their partaking in moderation. Would I smoke? No, would I advocate smoking, or dipping? No, but I can't put you in hell for your cookie duster or your Beech Nut. Anyone willing to help me see otherwise without twisting scriptures, I'm all for it. But can't throw a guy in hell for pipe tobacco, no matter how gross I think it smells.

[Amanah]

if I rephrase the question to:
"will unrepented sin send you to hell?" I have to come to conclude that it will.
And this is likely similar to what you are getting at Bro Michael.

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

if I rephrase the question to:
"will unrepented sin send you to hell?" I have to come to conclude that it will.
And this is likely similar to what you are getting at Bro Michael.

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Unrepented sin is logically damnable. Therefore the admonition of Revelation 2:5. They couldn't proceed forward unless they repented.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Occasionally sins? I was with another minister who was from this area and he got into a discussion with an individual in a Bible book store about this topic. They were both going back and forth concerning the subject when the owner of the book store interjected on the guy who said that people will always occasionally sin. The owner of the book store told the guy that his focus was already on the wrong thing. That his focus was on "sin" instead of Jesus Christ. Therefore he was already shooting himself in the foot. Walk in the light as He is in the light, Ephesians 5:15 look at the ESV, the apostle is telling you to be careful how you live, that is our focus, to keep our eyes and mind on Christ being led by the Spirit, not by our carnal minds. Proverbs 15:21 speaks of using wisdom to walk straight and upright, which can only be achieved by following the Holy Ghost. No Holy Ghost no holiness. You can love people all you want, and you will find that your idea of loving is diametrically opposed to God's idea. Therefore Ephesians 5:17 explain that we must be wise concerning God's will. It isn't our will, but God's will be done Luke 22:42 . Micheal and later Apostolic1nes point out that when a true repentant heart is worked out in someone's life it will cause a person to take sin very seriously. It isn't achieved through human discipline but through Spiritual Holy Ghost renewing through the discipline of Christ in us, the hope of glory.

I don't have any disagreement with what you've said.

What I'm wrestling with in my head is this. Let's say that you're sinlessly perfect right now, right? Being sinlessly perfect, it will not be in your nature to sin. You're perfect, sinlessly perfect. No sin nature, flesh mortified, and living in glorious sinlessness in the now.

Now, if you sin next week...that very act demonstrates that something in you isn't sinlessly perfect, even as we speak, or we'd be able to rest assured that you'd never sin. And so, you'd have to confess that during this very conversation, while you thought you were sinlessly perfect, you truly weren't. Of course, next week, after you confess to the Lord and repent, odds are high that you'll claim to be sinlessly perfect again... until you sin again a week or two later. lol

That's not sinless perfection. Jesus is the model for sinless perfection. And He didn't sin at all. Not one bit. And we can rest assured that He'll never sin. That's sinless perfection.

I don't know anyone who has attained that... yet.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Chris, no Christians through history ever believed the smoking, sniffing, or chewing of tobacco was bad, until recent history. Again, the issue here would be gluttony, meaning usage in excess. If a guy is smoking a cigar, cigarette, pipe, chewing it, spitting it, and sniffing it. I can find as much scripture against it as I can find against wearing a beard. Now, I can give my opinion on what I think culturally, and health wise what those items will cause the user, but I can't say he or she is going to bust hell wide for their partaking in moderation. Would I smoke? No, would I advocate smoking, or dipping? No, but I can't put you in hell for your cookie duster or your Beech Nut. Anyone willing to help me see otherwise without twisting scriptures, I'm all for it. But can't throw a guy in hell for pipe tobacco, no matter how gross I think it smells.

I honestly think that is a fair and balanced assessment of the issue. I'll chew on that a while. Pun intended.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Unrepented sin is logically damnable. Therefore the admonition of Revelation 2:5. They couldn't proceed forward unless they repented.

Let's say you black out and commit a slew of grievous sins you don't remember?

Must one remember each sin and repent of it? Or can one repent generally for anything done in that state?

[Aquila]

Paul said something strange. What is your take on this? What is "sin that dwelleth in me", in this text? We know that Paul discusses how to gain victory over this sin that dwells within in Romans chapter 8, so this is definitely no excuse to keep on sinning. My question is more theological or ontological.

Romans 7:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.