Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dead?

[Daniel12]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Until then we have it in "earnest". He pledges it through giving us his Spirit.

So its accurate to say we have eternal life. Its also accurate to say we are still waiting for it.

Yes, as I understand John there, he seems to be saying that since this is a promise from Him, it's as good as accomplished. But even still, it's something we await the completion, or fulfillment of, at His return. Presently we have the hope, promise, expectation, belief, etc., of eternal life, but that promise is completely assured...if we endure with this expectation to the end. Either ours, or His return.

Daniel12

[tbpew]

I am including the post below because I find it's content so rare among discussion board posting....in that it bears witness of an expectation that a solid doctrinal platform will result. Since scripture lists the resurrection of the dead as a foundational doctrine of Christ, we should expect to share the same foundations.

Yet as the discussion is engaged, there seems to be just two entrenched positions.
1. Resurrection is a transformation of a condition involving a body only. (soul life passes unchanged during the transition that is represented by before and after the death of the mortal body
2. Resurrection is a transformation involving both the body and soul

HaShaliach's post inserted reminders to us of the scriptural record that includes people with dead mortal bodies being seen in some kind of animated state and even participating in conversation (Mt of Transfiguration).

So if we were to obtain a "final doctrinal statement" as imagined by HaShaliach's glass half full optimism, we need to reconcile the seemingly divergent sounds being offered in this thread.

I would like to propose an expanded view to reconcile the seeming lack of harmony between the sounds represented in this thread: SLEEP TALKING.

No one believes they die each night during their sleep cycle, but rather they enter into a resting state.
I submit that the night comes when NO MAN SHALL WORK.
During the night cycle, the sleep cycle, no man works. The circumstances of the present will happen without him (the sleeper) having ANY CONTRIBUTION to EFFECT.

I submit that if our soul sleeps, our life is void of any contributing impact within the non-sleeping domain. We have in effect been removed from center stage and are observers at best or pre-occupied with another scene entirely.

I submit that there must be some greater change that occurs at the Resurrection than just getting a new glorified (immortal) body, the resurrection must in some way bring us back into the 'active participant' category. During our absence from works/participation we can make petition of the one who is the righteous judge but we have no influence on the stage that we have passed from.

Again, the scriptural record that HaShaliach reminds us of illustrates some aspect of person's with dead mortal bodies that is NOT DEAD...yet until a resurrection, these same persons are not effecting present circumstance.

posted by HaShaliach;762828
I just came aware of this thread – excellent work here.

Reexamination of doctrines in light of scripture, rather the examination of scripture in light of doctrines. This is something that has been needed for way too long.

A couple of additional scriptures to throw into the mix, to be addressed and incorporated (integrated) into the final draft:

A question of a post-life, pre-resurrection existence:

Matthew 17:1 ¶ And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and (1) James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: (1) Or Jacob)
2 and he was transfigured before them; and his face did shine as the sun, and his garments became white as the light.
3 And behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.

Then speaking of John the Baptist:

Luke 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall be turn unto the Lord their God.
17 And he shall (1) go before his [Jesus’] face in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to walk in the wisdom of the just; to make ready for the Lord a people prepared for him. (1) Some ancient authorities read come nigh before his face).

Implied "continued existence" from Malachi 4:5 (3-23) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. [JPS]

There is also Revelation 6:9 ¶ And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should (1) have fulfilled their course. (1) Some ancient authorities read be fullied in number; 2 Es 4:36)

And, also all of Revelation 7, concerning the timing and inclusion of those before the throne.

Note: a side issue that may be left for another doctrinal study focusing on baptisms:

1 Corinthians 15:28, And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do that are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them? [ASV]

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? [KJV]

----------------

Truly, you are all doing a wonderful job here, and I am looking forward to reading the final doctrinal statement.

So, with the addressing of a few loose ends, such as noted above, this thread should result in an outstanding doctrinal statement on the resurrection of the dead.

Again, excellent work, one and all!

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by tbpew

I am including the post below because I find it's content so rare among discussion board posting....in that it bears witness of an expectation that a solid doctrinal platform will result. Since scripture lists the resurrection of the dead as a foundational doctrine of Christ, we should expect to share the same foundations.

Yet as the discussion is engaged, there seems to be just two entrenched positions.
1. Resurrection is a transformation of a condition involving a body only. (soul life passes unchanged during the transition that is represented by before and after the death of the mortal body
2. Resurrection is a transformation involving both the body and soul

HaShaliach's post inserted reminders to us of the scriptural record that includes people with dead mortal bodies being seen in some kind of animated state and even participating in conversation (Mt of Transfiguration).

So if we were to obtain a "final doctrinal statement" as imagined by HaShaliach's glass half full optimism, we need to reconcile the seemingly divergent sounds being offered in this thread.

I would like to propose an expanded view to reconcile the seeming lack of harmony between the sounds represented in this thread: SLEEP TALKING.

No one believes they die each night during their sleep cycle, but rather they enter into a resting state.
I submit that the night comes when NO MAN SHALL WORK.
During the night cycle, the sleep cycle, no man works. The circumstances of the present will happen without him (the sleeper) having ANY CONTRIBUTION to EFFECT.

I submit that if our soul sleeps, our life is void of any contributing impact within the non-sleeping domain. We have in effect been removed from center stage and are observers at best or pre-occupied with another scene entirely.

I submit that there must be some greater change that occurs at the Resurrection than just getting a new glorified (immortal) body, the resurrection must in some way bring us back into the 'active participant' category. During our absence from works/participation we can make petition of the one who is the righteous judge but we have no influence on the stage that we have passed from.

Again, the scriptural record that HaShaliach reminds us of illustrates some aspect of person's with dead mortal bodies that is NOT DEAD...yet until a resurrection, these same persons are not effecting present circumstance.

What is the baptisim for the dead verses that he posted? Who said physical death is the end of God pursuing the sinner?

[easter]

Michael I am impressed with your knowledge of Jewish history.The writings of Josephus is very detailed for he was a Jewish historian and I recommend "Josephus complete works" very informative book.

Now if I may ask who is it that god brings with him at the event of the Rapture?
1 Thessalonians 4:14

[Scott Hutchinson]

Somebody has to be in heaven for Him to bring them back with Him at the catching away I would think.

[A.W. Bowman]

I pointed out that there are a few scriptural passages that need to be addressed and accounted for in developing a sound resurrection doctrine. The principle is the same for any and all doctrines and statements of church dogma.

For example, concerning the resurrection of the dead. Perhaps the subject being discussed is too broad and should be divided up into two or more subjects, such as what is the tween-state between mortal life and internal life (either in heaven or in hell). When is a soul/spirit created, etc.

The few verses I pointed out in my original post were "representative" and not inclusive.

Here are a couple of additional scriptures that need to be added into the mix:

1 Pet 4:1-6, where the gospel is apparently preached even unto the dead.This becomes telling when combined with -

1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do that are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?

Then, Jesus the man, died. Yet God raised him from the dead, thus becoming the first to be "fully" resurrected from the dead. Then, there are the partial (temporary) resurrections of Lazarus, the two girls and the Roman's servant who Jesus raised from the dead and how these events are accounted for in the doctrine.

These issues are not "sharp-shooting", but scriptural examples of what must be accommodated in the developing doctrine.

Again, I am impressed in both the quality and the substance that all sides are bringing to the table for examination.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by crakjak

What is the baptisim for the dead verses that he posted? Who said physical death is the end of God pursuing the sinner?

The answer to this one is overlooked because of its simplicity.

The whole chapter is concerning the resurrection of the dead. The resurrection OF JESUS FROM THE DEAD is the basis for our own resurrection.

First refresh yourself to the topic.

12: Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13: But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15: Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 1 Cor. 15:12-15

With that in mind:

29: Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 1 Cor. 15:29

Who is THE DEAD Paul is talking about?

JESUS CHRIST!

The Corinthians were being baptized FOR Jesus Christ. Because HE commands us to do so. Because we believe he rose again we are baptized FOR HIM.

If Jesus IS DEAD like some were teaching at Corinth why would we be baptized FOR HIM? We would be getting baptized for THE DEAD if Jesus Christ did not rise from THE DEAD.
16: For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

So its Paul calling the logic of being baptized FOR JESUS into question if he were still dead. He reasons that if Christ (the dead) did not rise their faith was in vain. If Christ is still among THE DEAD we are of all men most miserable!

That was Pauls point.

On the other hand if Paul thought you could be baptized in the place of someone who died IN THEIR SINS and then God would forgive them WOULD THAT NOT DESTROY THE TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL???

I mean why all the pathetic fighting over if one is baptized the right way? Why the stress whether one must receive the Holy Ghost and live a life of discipleship?

If THIS DOCTRINE is true all we have to do to be saved IS DIE!

Then a loved one can go down in the water FOR US and be baptized and our sins will be forgiven!

Does that have the ring of truth? That we can be saved without faith? Without repentance?

Go back and read what I said again slowly. Your eyes will be opened.

[easter]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

I pointed out that there are a few scriptural passages that need to be addressed and accounted for in developing a sound resurrection doctrine. The principle is the same for any and all doctrines and statements of church dogma.

For example, concerning the resurrection of the dead. Perhaps the subject being discussed is too broad and should be divided up into two or more subjects, such as what is the tween-state between mortal life and internal life (either in heaven or in hell). When is a soul/spirit created, etc.

The few verses I pointed out in my original post were "representative" and not inclusive.

Here are a couple of additional scriptures that need to be added into the mix:

1 Pet 4:1-6, where the gospel is apparently preached even unto the dead.This becomes telling when combined with -

1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do that are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?

Then, Jesus the man, died. Yet God raised him from the dead, thus becoming the first to be "fully" resurrected from the dead. Then, there are the partial (temporary) resurrections of Lazarus, the two girls and the Roman's servant who Jesus raised from the dead and how these events are accounted for in the doctrine.

These issues are not "sharp-shooting", but scriptural examples of what must be accommodated in the developing doctrine.

Again, I am impressed in both the quality and the substance that all sides are bringing to the table for examination.

1 Peter 4:1-6 preaching to the dead

I once heard a preacher give this account on preaching to the dead...
Can you imagine those folks before the coming of Jesus down in the Heart of the earth...I bet when those old testament saints heard from John the Baptist when he got there,he said ;boys get ready,Hey Isaiah,you know the one you told was coming?Well praise God you were right,even in describing him!Can't you hear Simeon and Anna,Oh John is right we saw the messiah as a baby in the temple of God.
Yes I bet there was some preaching going on and when Jesus took the keys of death and went down to the heart of the earth and got all the old testament saints,why even a few was seen walking the streets in Jerusalem.I bet there was a hallelujah going on in Heaven.
I always did like this sermon!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The answer to this one is overlooked because of its simplicity.

The whole chapter is concerning the resurrection of the dead. The resurrection OF JESUS FROM THE DEAD is the basis for our own resurrection.

First refresh yourself to the topic.

12: Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13: But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15: Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 1 Cor. 15:12-15

With that in mind:

29: Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 1 Cor. 15:29

Who is THE DEAD Paul is talking about?

JESUS CHRIST!

The Corinthians were being baptized FOR Jesus Christ. Because HE commands us to do so. Because we believe he rose again we are baptized FOR HIM.

If Jesus IS DEAD like some were teaching at Corinth why would we be baptized FOR HIM? We would be getting baptized for THE DEAD if Jesus Christ did not rise from THE DEAD.
16: For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

So its Paul calling the logic of being baptized FOR JESUS into question if he were still dead. He reasons that if Christ (the dead) did not rise their faith was in vain. If Christ is still among THE DEAD we are of all men most miserable!

That was Pauls point.

Amen and amen.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by easter

Michael I am impressed with your knowledge of Jewish history.The writings of Josephus is very detailed for he was a Jewish historian and I recommend "Josephus complete works" very informative book.

Now if I may ask who is it that god brings with him at the event of the Rapture?
1 Thessalonians 4:14

Please dont be impressed with my knowledge of Jewish history. Outside of the events described in the Tanakh it is very limited.

I have read some of Josephus's writings. Do you believe him to be fully accurate?

How about when he says there was hardly a Jew living in his generation that spoke in Greek?

How about when the angels came down and had sex with women?

What Josephus said about Hades does not agree with what the Tanakh says about it so one would certainly be inclined to question it.