Question on oneness doctrine?

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Esaias

I find it interesting God preserved no record whatsoever of the apostles teaching
Greek gentile converts to use any "Hebrew pronunciation" of the name of either
God or Messiah.

Very good, Brother.


And there are some that would deny His NAME in any other language but Hebrew,
which is where this thread seems to be heading. They tend to forget that on the Day
of Pentecost, the disciples spoke in tongues (could be interpreted languages) "...as the
Spirit gave them utterance...And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein
we were born?" The scriptures testifying that the gospel was to be preached in all
native tongues, for "...it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that
believe."

So we are NOT saved by "...repent...be baptized...you SHALL receive the gift of
the Holy Spirit...", AND by learning to speak and understand Hebrew.

Brother Villa

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So is it inappropriate for Jews to use the English Jesus? If not why?

The name of Jesus is always appropriate. Most Jews throughout the world speak English, at least to some degree.

From those Israelis who have very little English savvy it would be surprising to hear the name of Jesus. And it could be awkward for a preacher in Amharic or Russian to insist upon using the English Jesus, for the worshippers who have little English skill. And the same could be said of Jews in Russia and some other countries.

[Steven Avery]

There is a section or three in the last votivesoul post that has Hebrew-techie stuff that looks a little unusual. And I tend to bounce this off a friend who is very solid in Hebrew (my Hebrew background is small, e.g. Hebrew school and bar mitzvah, however that familiarity with the letters and vowels does come in handy in these discussions) and has a special interest in the issues around the tetragram. Then I go to the AV and the Hebrew in blueletterbible to show the text. Let me give an example (using Y and J as equivalents):

Originally Posted by votivesoul

There is minimal difference between "Yeh" and "Yah" in Hebrew. The name Yehoshua in Hebrew contains the same niqqud below the yud as the name "Yah" from Psalm 68:4.

For the readers, niqqud refers to the marks around the letters, here the interest is the vowels.

Psalm 68: 4(AV)
Sing unto God,
sing praises to his name:
extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH,
and rejoice before him.

JAH
בְּיָהּ
Yah has a Kamatz under the Yod.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/.../t_conc_546004
שִׁירוּ לֵֽאלֹהִים זַמְּרוּ שְׁמֹו סֹלּוּ לָרֹכֵב בָּעֲרָבֹות בְּיָהּ שְׁמֹו וְעִלְזוּ לְפָנָֽיו

יְהוֹשֻׁעַ
Yehoshua has a Sheva under the Yod.

אֶל־יְהֹושֻׁעַ
Joshua 1:1 (AV)
Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass,
that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun,
Moses' minister, saying,
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/.../t_conc_188001

יְהֹושֻׁעַ
1Chronicles 7:27 (AV)
Non his son, Jehoshua his son.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/.../t_conc_345027

And I am considering whether to go through the rest of the tech presentation. Would you mind giving a little background on your Hebrew training and sources? Why do you see the Yah-Yehoshua distinction differently?

Thanks!

Yours in Jesus name,
Steven

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

There is a section or three in the last votivesoul post that has Hebrew-techie stuff that looks a little unusual. And I tend to bounce this off a friend who is very solid in Hebrew (my Hebrew background is small, e.g. Hebrew school and bar mitzvah, however that familiarity with the letters and vowels does come in handy in these discussions) and has a special interest in the issues around the tetragram. Then I go to the AV and the Hebrew in blueletterbible to show the text. Let me give an example (using Y and J as equivalents):

For the readers, niqqud refers to the marks around the letters, here the interest is the vowels.

Psalm 68: 4(AV)
Sing unto God,
sing praises to his name:
extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH,
and rejoice before him.

JAH
בְּיָהּ
Yah has a Kamatz under the Yod.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/.../t_conc_546004
שִׁירוּ לֵֽאלֹהִים זַמְּרוּ שְׁמֹו סֹלּוּ לָרֹכֵב בָּעֲרָבֹות בְּיָהּ שְׁמֹו וְעִלְזוּ לְפָנָֽיו

יְהוֹשֻׁעַ
Yehoshua has a Sheva under the Yod.

אֶל־יְהֹושֻׁעַ
Joshua 1:1 (AV)
Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass,
that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun,
Moses' minister, saying,
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/.../t_conc_188001

יְהֹושֻׁעַ
1Chronicles 7:27 (AV)
Non his son, Jehoshua his son.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/.../t_conc_345027

And I am considering whether to go through the rest of the tech presentation. Would you mind giving a little background on your Hebrew training and sources? Why do you see the Yah-Yehoshua distinction differently?

Thanks!

Yours in Jesus name,
Steven

Hi, Steve

I studied Hebrew in college, not as official coursework, but with the Jewish Student Union, once with the rabbi who was sponsoring the group, and then with a student member from Israel and one from New York.

Also took a semester of Arabic and am a polyglot with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Spanish, with a year of college-level French and a year of Japanese, although I'm pretty rusty in all but Spanish, since graduating.

There's a lot of self-taught and online research thrown in as well.

As for the Yah-Yehoshua distinction:

Vowel and pronunciation points are a relatively recent event in Hebrew, when compared to the age of the language. There is the possibility of error on the part of the Masoretes. Many scholars have suggested the possible need for occasional re-vocalization of certain words or phrases in the Hebrew text.

As such, prior to any Masoretic involvement with the Hebrew Scriptures, native or taught Hebrew speakers, when reading the Scriptures, or any Hebrew texts, would be able to infer pronunciation and obtain understanding.

One example the rabbi with whom I studied gave was the difference in pronunciation between bet without the dagesh and with.

So, for some Hebrew speakers, they may call the southern desert regions of Israel Negev, and some, Negeb, regardless of the dagesh, since the difference between bet and vet was immaterial to the understanding.

I submit the same can be true with the consonants yud and hey. Hebrew, even with accurate niqqud, does not have a universal dialect. Israeli Hebrew versus Yemeni versus Ashkenazi versus Sephardic, and etc. Each of these (and there are more), have their own pronunciation schema.

2.) Qere and Ketib.

I'm not sure how you view things, and perhaps you're not inclined to agree with the premise, but it appears, I think, convincingly, that the vowel points that exist within the Tetragram do so only because they were placed there in order to let the reader know they were to say adonai, and not pronounce God's name, because it's holy. This speaks to point number one above, but also more specifically to the matter at hand.

If the kamatz below the yud in the Tetragram is present merely to direct the reader's attention to saying adonai, as seems to be the case, then the kamatz is not sufficient to cause anyone to know whether or not yudhey ought to be pronounced Yah.

Additionally, there are times when, instead of the Tetragram being written with the vowels of adonai, but instead with the vowels from elohim so as to direct the reader to say elohim instead of the Tetragram. This occurs when the Tetragram is located next to the word adonai, so as to avoid confusion (For example, when the text appears as Lord GOD, instead of LORD God).

Furthermore, if the niqqud for the Tetragram is an example of Qere and Ketib directing the reader to say adonai or elohim, we have to recognize that both adonai and elohim begin with aleph, showing that the only difference then is a matter of the phonological range of aleph, similar to our letter "a". For example, when we say Yah, we use a mid central vowel or /ə/ phoneme. But when we say, Hallelujah, we use a near-open central unrounded vowel or /ʌ/ phoneme, the very same phoneme used when we say Yehoshua.

This all goes to show that the distance between Yah and Yeh- is about a millimeter wide, if you will, and has no demonstrable import upon either the Tetragram or the name Yehoshua, thus, along with the minor orthographic difference, making the issue academic and not spiritual, in manner.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I find it interesting God preserved no record whatsoever of the apostles teaching Greek gentile converts to use any "Hebrew pronunciation" of the name of either God or Messiah.

I agree. However, when it comes to the name of God, the tetragram, some Bibles have one name, Jehovah, and some versions and scholars have Yahweh (as pronounced names, and there are words like LORD that are used as equivalents).

One is right, the other is wrong. The question is which one. And with Yahweh, you also have the fact that it is actually == the devil Jupiter.

So the question is there, whether you look at it as a Hebrew pronunciation issue or not. Some Bibles are pure, some are corrupt.

Steven

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

There is minimal difference between "Yeh" and "Yah" in Hebrew. The name Yehoshua in Hebrew contains the same niqqud below the yud as the name "Yah" from Psalm 68:4.

This was factually incorrect, as I show in the post above by simply looking at the words Yah and Yehoshua.

Rather than acknowledge the error, we get all sorts of stuff that is largely irrelevant to the question, followed by:

Originally Posted by votivesoul

This all goes to show that the distance between Yah and Yeh- is about a millimeter wide, if you will, and has no demonstrable import upon either the Tetragram or the name Yehoshua, thus, along with the minor orthographic difference, making the issue academic and not spiritual, in manner.

And I do not believe any such thing was shown. Different vowels, different sounds.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

If the kamatz below the yud in the Tetragram is present merely to direct the reader's attention to saying adonai, as seems to be the case, then the kamatz is not sufficient to cause anyone to know whether or not yudhey ought to be pronounced Yah.

The vowel below the yud is a sheva.

Steven

[Esaias]

A vowel may be pronounced differently depending of dialect/regionalism, but that doesn't change the vowel itself.

Ex, y'all is often pronounced "yawl", " yahl", or even with a hard "o" ("yoll"), and even with a u sound like "oo" as in book ("yool"), or a schwa sound ("yuhl"), but that doesn't change the fact the vowel is an "a".

[votivesoul]

Steven, please see this link:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/68-4.htm

Note:

יָ֥הּ

The niqqud under the yud is clearly a kamatz.

I was being very specific in my reference as it pertained to Yah and Yeh, using Yah (Jah) from Psalm 68:4 as an example.

In other instances of the full Tetragram, a sheva is used under the yud, as you indicate.

In either case, with the sheva, the purpose of the niqqud was designed to fulfill Qere and Ketib, directing the reader to say either adonai or elohim as the case necessitated. These two words both begin with aleph, yet have a distinct phonology in their respective phonemes, just as we have it in English (demonstrating the range).

Adonai begins like "ah-doe-nai" while elohim begins like "eh-lo-'im". Two different phonemes as borrowed from the Hebrew into English pronunciation, from the same Hebrew letter (aleph), from the same niqqud "sheva", from the Qere and Ketib of the Tetragram.

But I suppose if you reject the Qere and Ketib theory for the Tetragram, none of that matters.

Finally,

You wrote:

...we get all sorts of stuff that is largely irrelevant to the question...

If you can't see how much the below quote from my post (notwithstanding the rest) is totally relevant to the question, I'm not sure what else I can do to help or clarify, or answer questions.

For example, when we say Yah, we use a mid central vowel or /ə/ phoneme. But when we say, Hallelujah, we use a near-open central unrounded vowel or /ʌ/ phoneme, the very same phoneme used when we say Yehoshua.

Whether the shortened form of the Tetragram (Yah/Jah), or the word Hallelu-Jah, which means "Praise ye Yah, we see two different pronunciations based off of the phonological range, for the exact same thing, namely the first syllable in the name of God Almighty.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Steven, please see this link:
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/68-4.htm
Note:
יָ֥הּ
The niqqud under the yud is clearly a kamatz.

Which is what I wrote above:

"Yah has a Kamatz under the Yod."

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I was being very specific in my reference as it pertained to Yah and Yeh, using Yah (Jah) from Psalm 68:4 as an example.

And you said:

Originally Posted by votivesoul

he name Yehoshua in Hebrew contains the same niqqud below the yud as the name "Yah" from Psalm 68:4.

Which is simply wrong.

You may have various theories about vowel pronunciation, but first things first, have the facts on the ground right.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Whether the shortened form of the Tetragram (Yah/Jah), or the word Hallelu-Jah, which means "Praise ye Yah, we see two different pronunciations based off of the phonological range, for the exact same thing, namely the first syllable in the name of God Almighty.

First, the grammar of this sentence makes it hard to understand.

Second, Jah is not the first syllable of the name of God Almighty. It is Je- as in dozens of theophoric names.

The name can be used:

alone = Yah (poetic form, with its own special grammatical explanation)
prefix or first syllables == Ye and Yeho
suffix or final syllable == Yah and Yahu

When you talk about the "first syllable" you are talking about the prefix form and that is not Yah.

(I am always using Y and J interchangeably.)

Steven

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

If the kamatz below the yud in the Tetragram is present merely to direct the reader's attention to saying adonai, as seems to be the case, then the kamatz is not sufficient to cause anyone to know whether or not yudhey ought to be pronounced Yah.

Once again, in the tetragram the vowel below the yud is a sheva, not a kamatz.

yud - sheva
hay - cholem
vav - kamatz
hay

These are the full vowels, and in a few mss, like the Damascus Crown, this is the common reading, and is pronounced Yehovah if the letters and vowels are pronounced as written. This is also in important printed editions. Normally, in most mss like the Aleppo Codex, the common reading omits the cholem, with the cholem only included occasionally by scribal accident. (To be fair, the evidence can allow for two opposite alternatives as to the nature of the accident.)

When the vowels are placed from Elohim, they are different, and it is clearly designed to say Elohim.

As to whether these are the vowels from Adonai, (either with or without the cholem) that has some difficulties, especially as the first vowel is different, leading to a bit of a discussion back and forth. By convention, it is clear that Adonai was the common substitution when reading, and in most mss the full vowels of Jehovah were masked.

On Facebook, a gentleman named Christopher W. Clark has done a fine job showing and explaining various images of the letter and vowel forms.

Steven