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  #301  
Old 07-22-2018, 09:33 PM
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Re: Sex Before Marriage: Does God Approve?

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Seen hat in the church?
I think he means folks making hay before they've bought the barn?
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  #302  
Old 07-22-2018, 10:05 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Sex Before Marriage: Does God Approve?

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Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
Sex before marriage is fornication. Its sin. I understand your thoughts but that was to Hebrews under the law. That ain't us. Although I have seen it in the church.
Another thing, you must understand that Paul wasn't walking around quoting from the KJV. He didn't have a complete New Testament library. What He quotes from is the LXX Septuagint, Aramaic Targums, and Hebrew MSS. One thing is that we have 2,000 years of Different church fathers, bishops, popes, and an assortment of different religious groups which Churchinized traditions as the Rabbinical Talmudic Rabbis did through the ages. Let me show an example. The Bible has no dating. Where boy asks a girl out, and they are engaged. Boy goes and meets parents and tells them of the good news. No way. It would be easier to find the Pharaoh chasing down the children of Israel through the Mississippi river with a Klingon battle cruiser then an incident for dating. Fathers (patriarches) had total control over who their daughters married, and who they allowed to sign a contract. Even divorce had to go through scrutiny. Because God hates divorce Malachi 2:16. Later the Talmudic Rabbis during the time of the First Century A.D. debated this issue and two camps arose one strict to adhere to God's view, and the other to appease man. The culture found in the law still stands. Retribution to he who steals is still valid, one who doesn't work but is a slacker is still to be punished. Adultery is still a crime, but while we no longer stone to death a rebellious son, or an adultress wife and her lover, we still see it as God sees it a cutting off from the True Israel of God. Physical death is no longer warranted because we are called to forgive and take back the repented offender. The husband who has had his wife sin against him, should be able to take back his repented wife, and vice versa. Shotgun weddings weren't some sort of idea which sprang up out of nowhere. It was a creation straight from the Bible. Dating wasn't a Biblical idea, you didn't try out the merchandise. That was what a whoremonger did. Marriages throughout the ancient world were done by contract as early as the child's birth, They were arranged. Especially where politics were involved. Kingdoms at stake. These marriages were expected to last until death do you part. Death was the only way to get out of a marriage period. Therefore issues had to be worked out by the couple. Even if one wasn't a faithful believer. The woman had to show her unbelieving husband Christ through her quite chaste behavior. Not preaching to him, or nagging him, or dictating to him, or withholding from him. But showing him Jesus Christ through her silent chaste behavior.

There isn't it wasn't for us stuff, it is a culture we adopt, from the top of the head to the way we dress in modesty. It all came from them. Daughters had to listen to their fathers while they lived under the father's roof. If they didn't like that idea the house always had a front door. Same things for sons. God hates putting away, and wants all to come to repentance. Yet, it wasn't hate that made God put Adam and Eve from the garden. It was love. Israel chose Babylonian captivity. God always gives us the desires of our hearts. Right?

Law thou shalt, and thou shall not (fill in the blanks) is still there. Whether we like it or not.
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  #303  
Old 07-22-2018, 10:11 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Sex Before Marriage: Does God Approve?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
I think he means folks making hay before they've bought the barn?
Oh, I seen a lot of garbage going on but I don't call it being in church.

Lots of things sitting on pews looking like full blown 24kt gold Apostolic but are not in the church, the Body of Christ.
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  #304  
Old 07-22-2018, 10:15 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Sex Before Marriage: Does God Approve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Oh, I seen a lot of garbage going on but I don't call it being in church.

Lots of things sitting on pews looking like full blown 24kt gold Apostolic but are not in the church, the Body of Christ.
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  #305  
Old 07-23-2018, 06:15 AM
Apostolic1ness Apostolic1ness is online now
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Re: Sex Before Marriage: Does God Approve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Another thing, you must understand that Paul wasn't walking around quoting from the KJV. He didn't have a complete New Testament library. What He quotes from is the LXX Septuagint, Aramaic Targums, and Hebrew MSS. One thing is that we have 2,000 years of Different church fathers, bishops, popes, and an assortment of different religious groups which Churchinized traditions as the Rabbinical Talmudic Rabbis did through the ages. Let me show an example. The Bible has no dating. Where boy asks a girl out, and they are engaged. Boy goes and meets parents and tells them of the good news. No way. It would be easier to find the Pharaoh chasing down the children of Israel through the Mississippi river with a Klingon battle cruiser then an incident for dating. Fathers (patriarches) had total control over who their daughters married, and who they allowed to sign a contract. Even divorce had to go through scrutiny. Because God hates divorce Malachi 2:16. Later the Talmudic Rabbis during the time of the First Century A.D. debated this issue and two camps arose one strict to adhere to God's view, and the other to appease man. The culture found in the law still stands. Retribution to he who steals is still valid, one who doesn't work but is a slacker is still to be punished. Adultery is still a crime, but while we no longer stone to death a rebellious son, or an adultress wife and her lover, we still see it as God sees it a cutting off from the True Israel of God. Physical death is no longer warranted because we are called to forgive and take back the repented offender. The husband who has had his wife sin against him, should be able to take back his repented wife, and vice versa. Shotgun weddings weren't some sort of idea which sprang up out of nowhere. It was a creation straight from the Bible. Dating wasn't a Biblical idea, you didn't try out the merchandise. That was what a whoremonger did. Marriages throughout the ancient world were done by contract as early as the child's birth, They were arranged. Especially where politics were involved. Kingdoms at stake. These marriages were expected to last until death do you part. Death was the only way to get out of a marriage period. Therefore issues had to be worked out by the couple. Even if one wasn't a faithful believer. The woman had to show her unbelieving husband Christ through her quite chaste behavior. Not preaching to him, or nagging him, or dictating to him, or withholding from him. But showing him Jesus Christ through her silent chaste behavior.

There isn't it wasn't for us stuff, it is a culture we adopt, from the top of the head to the way we dress in modesty. It all came from them. Daughters had to listen to their fathers while they lived under the father's roof. If they didn't like that idea the house always had a front door. Same things for sons. God hates putting away, and wants all to come to repentance. Yet, it wasn't hate that made God put Adam and Eve from the garden. It was love. Israel chose Babylonian captivity. God always gives us the desires of our hearts. Right?

Law thou shalt, and thou shall not (fill in the blanks) is still there. Whether we like it or not.
still fornication is a sin that what im saying. sex before marriage is sin no matter if you get married the next day. sin is sin. I dont know why this isnt agreed upon. what do you mean there isnt "it wanst for us stuff" if two sixteen year olds fornicate in your church are you going to force them to get married? what if a person commits fornication with someone outside of church are you going to require them to get married? the thought that its not fornication if they get married the next day is not good. its a license for people who want to get married to sin and be forced to marry which is what they want. its still sin outside of the marriage covenant.
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  #306  
Old 07-23-2018, 06:36 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: Sex Before Marriage: Does God Approve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
still fornication is a sin that what im saying. sex before marriage is sin no matter if you get married the next day. sin is sin. I dont know why this isnt agreed upon. what do you mean there isnt "it wanst for us stuff" if two sixteen year olds fornicate in your church are you going to force them to get married? what if a person commits fornication with someone outside of church are you going to require them to get married? the thought that its not fornication if they get married the next day is not good. its a license for people who want to get married to sin and be forced to marry which is what they want. its still sin outside of the marriage covenant.
I agree with what you are saying. But, when they slept together, did they in actuality become one flesh? Does God see them as being one flesh?

This is why young people need adult supervision and chaperones, and Dad's who show up at the door to greet you with a shotgun if you come calling on their daughter.

Last edited by Amanah; 07-23-2018 at 06:41 AM.
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  #307  
Old 07-23-2018, 06:43 AM
JoeBandy JoeBandy is offline
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Re: Sex Before Marriage: Does God Approve?

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Originally Posted by n david View Post
Why is it funny?
Let me preface by saying I do not condone premarital sex. The reason I said what an ADMIN. posted was funny is because there is a multitude of "sins" that we discuss here on AFF, but this particular administrator threatens to "deal" with anyone who may have a different outlook and want to discuss why on this subject. Now, There is a reason why an old poster "Allstate1" posted what he did. Allstate's wife is a Psychiatrist specializing in family counseling. She has done and is doing research for a book that will entail marriage and the failures of couples "forced" to get married at very young ages. Also research on the failure of marriages in strict religious circles were the couple basically get married so they can have sex. I have been allowed to read through her research and it is startling and eye opening!
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  #308  
Old 07-23-2018, 06:47 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Sex Before Marriage: Does God Approve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
still fornication is a sin that what im saying. sex before marriage is sin no matter if you get married the next day. sin is sin. I dont know why this isnt agreed upon. what do you mean there isnt "it wanst for us stuff" if two sixteen year olds fornicate in your church are you going to force them to get married? what if a person commits fornication with someone outside of church are you going to require them to get married? the thought that its not fornication if they get married the next day is not good. its a license for people who want to get married to sin and be forced to marry which is what they want. its still sin outside of the marriage covenant.
Nobody said it isn't sin, or fornication, if they get married. Just like nobody would say it isn't theft if the thief made immediate restitution upon getting caught.
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  #309  
Old 07-23-2018, 07:07 AM
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Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Sex Before Marriage: Does God Approve?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Sorry, but once again you have no Scripture for that. Trying to pass off modern liberal social justice warrior value judgments off as the mind of God is a dangerous thing. Not to mention silly.
Oh, but a cork in it. You're radical reverse political correctness jumps to dismiss anything that you deem looks liberal. The problem is... it prevents you from taking a closer look and see what is perhaps a truth closer to the intent of the original writers. Let's look at the word "fornication"....

In the Greek it is "porneia" (πορνεία). It's root is the Greek "pórnos" (porn), which is derived from the Greek, "pernaō", which means, "to sell off", or a, "selling off". The dictionary meaning of the word "fornication" means any unlawful sexual intercourse including adultery. In the Bible, the Greek definition of the word "porneia" means to commit illicit sexual intercourse.

The English word "fornication" comes from the Latin "fornicationem" (nominative fornicatio), noun of action from past participle stem of fornicari "to fornicate", which is based on the Latin fornix (genitive "fornicis") "brothel", originally meaning an "arch, vaulted chamber, a vaulted opening, a covered way,". The sense extension in Latin is perhaps because Roman prostitutes commonly solicited from under the arches of certain buildings.

The Latin meaning is often said to denote prostitution, or illicit sex for money. The biblical "proneia" is far more broad in its meaning and would actually not only include illicit sex for money, but also any sex outside of the marital covenant, adultery, "swapping", homosexuality, bestiality, rape, lust, any degrading and dehumanizing sexual, etc., as being other forms of fornication.

For this reason, newer translations of the Bible haven chosen to translate the Greek term most often translated as "fornication" as, "sexual immorality" and "fornicators" as the "sexually immoral". It is only in the Western mind that the term "fornication" strictly speaks of sexual activity between unmarried people.

Therefore, yes, if one acts in a sexually immoral way, even within the marital covenant with their spouse, it is a form of fornication (porneia).

So, as you can see, this is no "liberal social justice warrior" position taken in the hopes of discouraging the bedding of baby seals. It is an informed and biblically sound position that fully understands the broader meaning of the actual Greek.

Last edited by Aquila; 07-23-2018 at 07:10 AM.
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  #310  
Old 07-23-2018, 07:26 AM
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Re: Sex Before Marriage: Does God Approve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
Sex before marriage is fornication. Its sin. I understand your thoughts but that was to Hebrews under the law. That ain't us. Although I have seen it in the church.
Paul does say something that is similar to the OT law's perspective on this. First, let's look at what the Law says about sex before marriage:
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 New Living Translation (NLT)
28 “Suppose a man has intercourse with a young woman who is a virgin but is not engaged to be married. If they are discovered, 29 he must pay her father fifty pieces of silver. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he may never divorce her as long as he lives.
Here, we read that if a man has intercourse with a young woman who is a virgin and is not engaged, if they are discovered, he must pay her father fifty pieces of silver. Then the man must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he may never divorce her as long as he lives.

Paul seems to take a very similar position:
1 Corinthians 7:8-9 English Standard Version (ESV)
8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single, as I am. 9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Here, Paul gives some practical advice. Paul states that he believes that it is good for the unmarried and widows in the church to remain single, as he is. However, if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. Because it is better to marry than to burn with uncontrollable sexual passions. So, in this context, if an unmarried man and woman cannot contain their passions for one another (premarital intercourse or not), they should marry. In fact, Paul's statement is broad enough to even include singles who are finding it difficult to contain their sexual desires. They should consider looking for a mate and marry.

Paul's advice is pretty reasonable. If unmarrieds can't control themselves, they should marry.

Last edited by Aquila; 07-23-2018 at 09:10 AM.
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