UPDATE
So the two JWs came by today and once again 'overstayed' their visit. (That is, they stayed longer than they planned, about an hour and a half. I hope I don't get them into trouble...) We chatted a bit about various issues (ranging from Halloween and other pagan holidays, to the Trinity, and a wide range of topics in between). We kept it pretty much low-level, as I am taking the approach that there is little purpose in debating doctrines with them at this point. I am keeping in mind that to the JW, the Watchtower is God's spokesman, so Bible debates do not really matter, similar to 'debating' a hard-core knowledgeable catholic or Orthodox. The Organisation has the 'truth', so everything else is secondary. I have to get them to see, or at least begin to question, whether or not the Watchtower indeed is the appointed, divinely chosen representative of God and dispenser of 'spiritual food' for this age. Which means I have to zero in on the authority of the Watchtower
first before we can really start digging into doctrinal 'differences'.
So they of course had left their little booklet 'What Does the Bible
Really Teach?' I mentioned to them I had read through some of it, but not all of it, and was really interested in some of the claims it made concerning 1914.
In summary, their literature they had left me last week says that there is a prophecy in Daniel concerning a 2520 year period 'times of the gentiles/nations', that began in 607 BC with the overthrow of the Davidic monarchy and which would continue until its end point in October of 1914. At which point the time period being ended, the heir to the throne of David was installed as King, ie in 1914 Jesus began to 'reign' as King over the earth.
Supposedly,
Psalm 110 prophesies that Christ, upon his ascension, would be 'seated at the right hand of God' waiting until he was to begin his reign as King. This waiting was to be ended when the 2520 years ('seven times') ended in 1914. Thus, Jesus began to reign in 1914. This was the fulfillment of the prophecy in
Revelation 12 about Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven down into the earth, which was would bring a time of trouble to the earth and the world system. This, they say, was demonstrated in 1914 with WW1, the Great Depression, WW2, and all the other 'troubles' we have had since 1914. And therefore, they say, Armageddon is fast approaching when the 'short time' that Satan has here on this earth will run out, the wicked will be destroyed, the first resurrection will take place, the 1000 year kingdom of Jehovah will be set up on earth, all rule and government will be abolished except for the heavenly Kingdom of God, which will reign in the affairs of men.
According to the literature, 'a group of Bible students'
prior to 1914 had discerned from their studies of prophecy that the seven times (2520 year) period would end in 1914.
Now, I asked about this, and told them I wanted to see how these Bible students came to this conclusion
before 1914. I specifically asked 'how did they know to take the seven times prophecy given to Nebuchadnezzar and apply it to 'the times of the nations', and how did they know to start the countdown at 607 BC?
Now, one of them specifically stated 'they knew something was going to happen in 1914, but they didn't know what.' I know from the research I've been doing the past two weeks that the Bible students (Jehovah's Witnesses) prior to 1914 had an expectation,
and were confident of their expectation of what was to happen. So I think either this particular JW either doesn't really know the history of the organisation, or the Organisation has 'gotten new light' and conveniently revised their history (as they are known to do) to now be claiming 'we knew something was going to happen
but we didn't know what was going to happen.' I have read JW literature from before 1914 up to the 1930s and 40s, and they were adamant that they knew exactly what was going to happen. Namely,
that Armageddon was going to take place in 1914 (since they believed Christ began to reign in 1874!). Of course, by the 1940s, their understanding had to be tossed out, and so in 1943 they got 'new light' and changed their doctrine to 'in 1914 Christ began to reign', and pushed Armageddon off to 1975. (After 1975, they got some more convenient 'new light' and determined nobody knows when Armageddon is gonna happen...)
So we talked a little about this, and I got them to offer to 'do some research' and come back with some more detailed studies on this subject. This gives me the opportunity to dredge up some older JW literature. I am probably going to try to pull up and print out copies of the Watchtower showing the following:
1. The Bible Students were looking for Armageddon in 1914.
2. They believed Christ began to reign in 1874.
3. They were ABSOLUTELY ASSURED of these things.
4. They did not understand 1914 being the BEGINNING of Christ's reign until 1943 when they changed their interpretation.
Now, I expect the defense will be 'well, nobody's perfect and we all grow and learn and change...' But I have to make the point - the CURRENT literature claims a group of people were faithful to Jehovah and were given the understanding from God concerning these things. So... the question is 'well, who gave them their information about 1874, their early understanding of 1914, etc?' Certainly not Jehovah, because he would not be giving his faithful servants FALSE information...?
I have to get down to the question: How did God choose the JWs and the Watchtower as the faithful and discreet slave dispensing good spiritual food at the proper time, when at the time of their 'selection' by God, they were utterly and completely wrong about practically everything? In other words, there is a conflict between what the Watchtower claims, and what the Watchtower actually did and does. Or in other words, there is a conflict between the Watchtower's criteria for 'true worship' and the Watchtower itself.
Now, we also got into a discussion about the identity of Christ. I think they were a bit taken aback. I explained Oneness to them using terms they could understand (I did NOT want to get them off into trying to disprove the Trinity), and they responded with basically that they believe Jesus Christ was a pre-existent spirit being, the 'Begotten Son of God', who came into the world and was put inside Mary's womb. I pointed out to them this sounds exactly like what the catholics claim about the Trinity, that the 'Son of God' came into Mary's womb. I mentioned that Luke declares the REASON Christ is called 'the Son of God' is because he was born of a virgin by a miracle of the Holy Spirit. I asked them 'if he was begotten before he was born, was he born twice? When was he begotten?' They tried to deflect by claiming begotten means 'created' and I pointed out that if I 'build' or 'create' something I did NOT 'beget' it... I almost wanted to ask them 'who was his mother?' lol
Anyway, they accepted they could see what I saying about Christ being the full manifestation or revelation of God, although they did not agree with the idea he is YHVH 'in the flesh', but rather 'Michael the angel in the flesh. (!)
I brought up the Angel of YHVH in the OT, as a manifestation or appearance of YHVH, but they said 'there was only a few times where this was actually Godf Himself, like the burning bush and maybe when God talked to Abraham, but usually whenever God 'spoke' to anyone he did it through his servants (the angels), just like the President can 'tell' a foreign country something, but he doesn't do it himself, he does it through his secretary of state or an ambassador...'
They also brought up Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God in the same way that a son is said to be 'the spittin image of his dad'. They also brought up the old catholic trinitarian argument about Adam and Eve being 'made one', but they weren't the same person, they were just in one accord.
I was careful to constantly reaffirm that we have to take the Bible for what it says, even if we don't understand how or why it says things, we have to begin with BELIEVING what it says first of all, and the understanding will come later through prayer and study. So when I see the Bible say that Christ is a man, the Son of God, that he prayed, worshipped God, etc etc, I accept that. But I also have to accept those places where statements about YHVH are applied directly to Christ, where Christ is called God, etc. I did bring up Thomas and 'my Lord and my God' and their answer to that was that 'either Thomas was perhaps confused or did not understand things at that point in time, or he was just recognizing Jesus was a
godlike being'.
(See what I mean? Their arguments against the fact that Jesus Christ IS Jehovah in the flesh are not only unbiblical, but illogical and self contradictory, but
that does not deter them. Instead, whatever the Watchtower says, no matter how illogical or unscriptural, is the truth because the Watchtower has the truth and dispenses truth at the appropiate time..)
I noticed that they are really big on selling the Watchtower organisation. They emphasize repeatedly that they are the ones who go 'door to door' preaching 'the gospel', that nobody else does it or can do it. ('Many have tried, churches have tried, but they give up. Churches have even hired companies to do it for them and those companies can't do it. Why? Because they do not have Jehovah's blessing like we do...') They are big on how successful the Jehovah's Witnesses are, how they are the only ones preaching God's government-about-to-overthrow-earthly-goverments, door to door, to reach everyone on earth before Armageddon. They also reaffirmed several times how they themselves were skeptical, and how 'hard' it was for them to 'convert', because they were skeptical, but by gosh they started to see that only the Jehovah's Witnesses had an accurate understanding of prophecy and the end times, and were the only ones doing the preaching work commanded in the Scriptures...
I definitely did get the idea that they were selling the Watchtower org. They like to talk about it, how great it is, how wonderful things are in the Kingdom Hall, how Jehovah guides them and yada yada yada. I've never met a religious proselytizer who seemed so big on promoting their denomination, except catholics, a few 'landmark' type Baptists, and Hare Krishnas and Mormons.
Wow.
So there it is, now I've got to get crackin' and do more research on their '1914' doctrine. I also intend to bring up the 144,000 'spiritual sons of God' they believe will reign with Christ. I want to ask 'are they ruling now, since Christ is? If so, where are they, who are they, HOW do they rule?'
The 144,000 is an interesting doctrine they have. It is one of the LEAST Biblically supported doctrines of theirs. In fact, by discussing the 144,000, we will get into the subject of regeneration and being 'born again' (they believe only the 144,000 are born again)...yet Jesus said 'except you are born again you will NOT see the kingdom of God'... so why do they preach about a hope they have no hope of seeing?
I also want to get into
1 Cor 15 which teaches Christ's being seated at the right hand of God requires his sitting TO REIGN UNTIL his enemies are destroyed, including death. Which means his 'waiting' is NOT waiting to begin his reign, but waiting for all enemies to be subdued, including death. Which means he does not begin reigning in 1914, but began when he ascended to heaven and took up his throne!
Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
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