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  #21  
Old 01-15-2019, 08:39 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Romans 10:9-10 and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Peter was however actually exhorting the listeners to do something right then and there, to put into actual action the conceptual ideas expounded by Paul in Romans 10. Paul gives the theory, Peter gives the praxis, if I may oversimplify it a bit.
I like the way you put this.

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The UPC is generally very deficient in giving exhaustive treatments of doctrine. Moreover, the UPC does not have a coherent soteriology in it's official statement of beliefs/Articles of Faith. I will go further and say their official soteriology is in fact unscriptural, and is based entirely on wordsmithing a compromise in order to make possible the original Merger out of which the UPC came into being.
I was very surprised recently when I read the UPCI's Articles of Faith, especially the section on Repentance:

"Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1)."

We're justified at repentance according this section.

As it stands, this contradicts the Fundamental Doctrine statement and would not agree with the vast majority of UPCI ministers who view all of Acts 2:38 as the new birth.

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Biblically, salvation is a process, beginning with election in Christ and culminating in the Resurrection and Judgment. Repentance and faith, baptism, and receiving the Spirit are all necessary component parts of the conversion experience ("becoming a Christian"). There is no reconciliation between that and Romans 10 needed. It is only a felt need by those unsure of their own doctrine, in my opinion. As I explained above in this post, confession of Christ takes place in baptism.
In this process, when someone has only repented, or maybe has only repented and been baptized, are they still lost at that point in the process? I understand you to mean that until someone was baptized with the Spirit (with the sign of speaking in tongues) as well they would be lost, but I wanted to confirm.

Thank you for the reply.
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  #22  
Old 01-15-2019, 09:25 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Romans 10:9-10 and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post

In this process, when someone has only repented, or maybe has only repented and been baptized, are they still lost at that point in the process? I understand you to mean that until someone was baptized with the Spirit (with the sign of speaking in tongues) as well they would be lost, but I wanted to confirm.

Thank you for the reply.
"Are they still lost at X step in the process"?

What's funny is, in my understanding of salvation, this question never comes up (in my mind, anyway).

Too many people think in terms of "Are we there, yet?" instead of viewing salvation more holistically. If I do X, but not Y, am I still saved? Am I still lost? People are thinking of salvation as like getting a ticket to a show or something: There's a step in which you buy and receive the ticket, before which forget it and after which you're as good as gold.

And so they invent hypotheticals: What if a person repents but dies before being baptized? Or repents and is baptised but dies before receiving the Spirit?

Well, what if a person has the full Acts 2:38 experience, but backslides, and dies before repenting of it? I mean, we can create hypotheticals all day long if we want. And in all those hypotheticals, we seem to lose sight of the fact that GOD IS IN CHARGE OF OUR SALVATION. As if God can't be depended on to get a repentant believer to the water, or fill someone with the Spirit. And, as if God hasn't done anything and isn't doing anything from beginning to end in someone's life.

As long as a person is cooperating with God, by following the Word and the leading of the Spirit, I would never tell someone "You're lost as any heathen." How can a person be considered "lost" if they are being led by God into salvation? Are they not being saved?

The problem, though, is a lot of people are actually resisting God. They resist the command to repent, calling it "Lordship salvation heresy" or "legalism". They resist baptism, they resist the Spirit, they resist the instruction of the Word. Are they lost? Most likely.

As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God (Romans 8:14). So, one can "check all the boxes" but if they aren't being led by the Spirit, they aren't God's children. Conversely, if they are being led by the Spirit, they are God's children.

And God saves His children. Nobody dies lost "accidentally".

Repentance and baptism? I know we often speak loosely of repenting as the point at which we decide to cease from our sinning ways and start looking to Christ for our salvation, but technically speaking I do not see repentance as complete until baptism. Or, to put it a bit more correctly, baptism is part of repentance (turning to Christ).

So a person has repented and been baptisrd. And they wonder "Where exactly am I in God's kingdom?" There is no reason to suggest to them they are lost, as lost as when they were living in sin. Rather, we can rejoice that they have received the Word of God, have put their trust in Jesus, have obeyed His Gospel. But they need to continue, believe and pray for the Spirit.

And then what? They need to continue in the Word, in holiness, in learning sound doctrine and conforming to Christ.

I think we can get more done presenting things as promises to be received than as requirements to be met. Sinners are one thing, but those whose hearts are tender towards God do not need to be driven like cattle. They just need to see what glories lie ahead and encouraged to lay hold on the promises of God.
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  #23  
Old 01-15-2019, 11:17 PM
Apostolic1ness Apostolic1ness is offline
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Re: Romans 10:9-10 and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Verbal confession of Christ with sincere faith in Him is part of repenting and being baptized in His name. Both Romans 10 and Acts 2 are exhortations based upon Joel 2:32 (and Psalm 86:5). Repent and be baptized in His name is referred by Peter as how to "call upon the name of the Lord", whereas Paul refers to "believing in your heart and confessing the Lord Jesus with your mouth". They refer to the same thing, which we see in Acts 22:16. There Paul recounts his own conversion, where he was instructed to be baptised and wash away his sins, calling on the name of Lord.

Therefore, Romans 10 is referring to conversion-salvation with the emphasis on faith and confession of Christ in apposition to continuance in Judaism (as indicated by the context of Romans). Paul is explaining to Christians as well as to enquiring Jews (see Romans 2:17 etc) the fundamental elements of faith and confession of Messiah as being the key distinctive of Christianity (and of salvation).

Peter was however actually exhorting the listeners to do something right then and there, to put into actual action the conceptual ideas expounded by Paul in Romans 10. Paul gives the theory, Peter gives the praxis, if I may oversimplify it a bit.



The UPC is generally very deficient in giving exhaustive treatments of doctrine. Moreover, the UPC does not have a coherent soteriology in it's official statement of beliefs/Articles of Faith. I will go further and say their official soteriology is in fact unscriptural, and is based entirely on wordsmithing a compromise in order to make possible the original Merger out of which the UPC came into being.

Biblically, salvation is a process, beginning with election in Christ and culminating in the Resurrection and Judgment. Repentance and faith, baptism, and receiving the Spirit are all necessary component parts of the conversion experience ("becoming a Christian"). There is no reconciliation between that and Romans 10 needed. It is only a felt need by those unsure of their own doctrine, in my opinion. As I explained above in this post, confession of Christ takes place in baptism.
I like this post. I too feel that many are unsure of their own doctrine and struggle to believe scriptures such as in Romans don't conflict with the New birth message.
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  #24  
Old 01-15-2019, 11:27 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Romans 10:9-10 and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
I like this post. I too feel that many are unsure of their own doctrine and struggle to believe scriptures such as in Romans don't conflict with the New birth message.
Indeed. Whenever I've read a passage and felt like it somehow "conflicted" with some belief I had, upon closer examination I always find that either I didn't understand the passage, or didn't understand the true doctrine to begin with.

I think a lot of the problem comes from what I call Sound Bite Theology. Doctrine gets summarized in little cliche sound bites, as it were. Because it is easier and quicker to teach those than to walk people diligently through the whole Bible, we get folks whose only knowledge of doctrine is a superficial summary with some verses thrown in to "support" the summary. The result is a lack of depth in understanding what is to be believed and why.

It's functionally not much different than teaching doctrine via Catechism, the Westminster or London Confession, or some simplistic Creed. While a catechism or summary statement of faith may have its uses, those uses are limited, and cannot take the place of intensive Bible study. In my opinion, anyway.
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  #25  
Old Yesterday, 02:34 AM
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votivesoul votivesoul is offline
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Re: Romans 10:9-10 and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
In Romans 10:9-10, Paul locates our justification and salvation in having faith that God raised Jesus from the dead and in confessing that Jesus is Lord. This saving faith is something in the heart that is confessed with the mouth.

"9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."

What is your approach to harmonizing this passage with Acts 2:38? How do they go together?

According to the standard UPCI view, salvation is not experienced till you have been baptized in water and baptized in the Spirit, so if this is how you believe, how would you explain that salvation is not in fact experienced in belief/faith and confessing that faith as Paul states here in Romans 10?
We cannot confess Jesus is Lord except through the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3).

Jesus asked "And why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46).

In Acts 1:2, we read that Jesus through the Holy Spirit gave His apostles commandments.

All imperative statements in the Book of Acts made by the apostles are by definition, commands.

So, in order to fulfill Romans 10:9-10, we see that one cannot confess the Lord Jesus without the following:

1.) Help from the Holy Spirit
2.) Doing whatever Jesus commands
3.) Understanding He issued commandments to His Apostles through #1 above
4.) That Acts 2:38 is just such a Holy Spirit given commandment
5.) That we are therefore obligated to obey His apostles in all their imperative statements (like Acts 2:38) if we want to successfully be able to confess that Jesus is in fact "Lord".

If a person merely states Jesus is Lord but isn't actively obeying Him, they fail at Luke 6:46. If they fail at Luke 6:46, then it is not by the Holy Spirit that they are calling Him Lord, that is, they are bearing false witness, failing at 1 Corinthians 12:3 and Acts 1:2.

Obeying Acts 2:38 (and everything else, too) is, therefore, a sign of respect and submission to Christ's Lordship. To disobey it is to automatically nullify any so-called Romas 10:9-10 confession to the contrary.
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Last edited by votivesoul; Yesterday at 02:37 AM.
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