The reality of the slippery slope?

[Jason B]

I joined AFF in 2007. I wasn't raised in the UPC and knew little of Christianity, much less oneness Pentecostalism prior to January of 2000. It's safe to say prior to 2007 I pretty much believed the oneness movement was monolithic, essentially all conservative, and that all OPs were "3 steppers". I knew exceptions existed, but I had little exposure to them. Anyway, as we know AFF, especially it's it's hey day was a melting pot for everything apostolic, or anyone with even the slightest connection to the movement at any time. Left, right, center, libs, conservative, ultra cons, apostates, agnostics, heretics, charismatics, charlatans, Muslims, athiests, bapticostals, etc all discussed here. Hundreds.
Over 11 years you kinda see how life unfolds, and with AFF, Facebook, and such these days you observe people's lives at a distance, wherein in the past all contact would be lost.

So here's the point. It is my observation that it seems many (most) people who have left the OP movement do in very fact make shipwreck of their faith. I'm constantly amazed by people who once stood strong for what we all believed was truth and holinessand just how far the other way they have swung. It honestly saddens me.

I say this as someone who has left myself. It breaks my heart to see all the Ex's embrace all manner of heresy, word faith charismatic, seeker, gay affirming, post modern and essentially every perversion of anything resembling even remotely sound Christian doctrine. I'm heart broken when I see people who used to live holiness look like Jan Crouch with vanity all over them. I'm heart broken when I see people who preached holiness and sensible doctrine follow the likes of Steven Furtick and Bill Johnson. I'm heart broken when I see folks strive for noteriety and do whatever is necessary to forward their ministry, their brand, their ego. People who loved God, who were good preachers. Saints who loved God, wholovrd the church, and prayer, and the people of God, and whose passion was revival. I can't believe the things I hear, read,and see. It breaks my heart the broken families. It breaks my heart that not only do they not go to an OP church, but rarely go at all, if they even believe in the most basic Christian gospel anymore.

In all honesty, this saddens me. Over and over. It's like I keep watching the same thing. And obviously I'm not saying that with a dog in the fight. I left in 2010 and have always remained in church. Pastored an independent Bible Church from 2014-2017. I've been vocal about some of my differences with OP doctrine here on this forum. But regardless of that, I hate to see people either turn away from Christ, or else claim to serve Him and yet just seemingly be the victim of a cycle of poor choices. Drugs, alcoholism, divorce, filled with hatred and cussing, life in bars and clubs. It's sad.

And honestly it happens with such frequency, I can see why old timers roll out the horror stories to make people scared of leaving.

This hasn't happened to me. And I wonder if it's because I wasn't raised in it. I converted at 18. I had no family or friends who were OPs. In fact I'm not sure I had any family or friends who attended any type of church regularly. I went from the world I to a UC UPC. And stayed 10 years, then left. And have basically been in conservative reformed Bible Churches since. A lot of similarties and obviously a few big differences.

So I wonder, why is it so many leave and just go totally bonkers? Even if it takes 5-10 years to get there, it seems they get there. Is that a by product of the OP culture and preaching? Is it because they left "the truth"? I believe it's the isolationist culture. But I'd like to hear others takes.

Regardless if the least, the end result is bad. It does make me wonder if these people who claim to have freedom wouldn't have been much better off staying their former course. I wonder how many would admit that, or think that but won't admit it. I wonder how has the internet affected this?

Maybe it's just me and sinceI don't have a history in the movement, I don't know, but it seems like in the last 15 years a mass exodus has taken place from conservative OPism. And even the UPC seems to have flipped from conservative to liberal leaning. It just seems like the ones who left, totally threw everything out. And the ones who stayed moved right to left and now mirror the larger Evangelical movement, rather than classical Pentecostal or holiness movements.

Just some random thoughts. We'll see where this goes.

[Esaias]

The majority of people with wrecked lives are not "ex oneness pentecostals". The majority of whacked out charismaniacs are not former UPCers.

The problem isn't the UPC or the "apostolic movement" in general. The problem is modern western civ is in ICU and the body is already starting to stink, but nobody has pulled the plug yet.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The majority of people with wrecked lives are not "ex oneness pentecostals". The majority of whacked out charismaniacs are not former UPCers.

I'm talking specifically about people who were members of UPC churches, pastored UPC churches, evangelized in the UPC, graduated UPC Bible Churches, or were closely connected but independent brethren. Tons. Plenty just on AFF at some point in the last 10 years.

I'm not talking about charismatics,though many of these people have embraced those errors. I'm specifically talking about ex OPs. If they were never in a UPC/OP church that baptized in Jesus name and believed tongues was the initial evidence, then I am not referring to them. Just to clarify.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Jason B

I'm talking specifically about people who were members of UPC churches, pastored UPC churches, evangelized in the UPC, graduated UPC Bible Churches, or were closely connected but independent brethren. Tons. Plenty just on AFF at some point in the last 10 years.

I'm not talking about charismatics,though many of these people have embraced those errors. I'm specifically talking about ex OPs. If they were never in a UPC/OP church that baptized in Jesus name and believed tongues was the initial evidence, then I am not referring to them. Just to clarify.

Yes, and I'm pointing out that the Insanity™ is a built in feature of modern life, not the UPC.

[Amanah]

We are saved by obedient faith, faith that results in obeying the gospel
we are saved via being led by the Spirit, resulting in the fruit of the Spirit (holiness).

We are saved by faith not by works of the flesh, But faith without works is dead being alone.

Now what if someone thinks that following the rules saves them. What if they get confused and try to be saved by their own efforts?
Or they forget that they can not do it on their own, but only in relationship with Christ, bible, prayer, fasting, fellowship can they be saved?

What if some people dropped their standards and recklessly lost their way?

What if some people now are so distracted by the culture, social media, tv, movies, ect, that they are not maintaining a saving relationship with Christ?

[1ofthechosen]

I'd say the problem comes with pride and arrogance In people wanting to create a hybrid religion. Schismatics, and reprobates they aren't just leaving our churches they are leaving all churches, and from every walk of life. Only reason we seem to get highlighted with this hog wash is people know who has the truth it's evident. So we look bad, because of that.

But there's Evangelical preachers going athiest and churches are allowing them to stay and pastor the church. We haven't even began reaching levels of depravity like that, but the Oneness movement gets attention because people know who they come to for prayer when they want answers, they know where people are being healed, and they know who to go to if people are possessed, and they need the devil to be casted out. Since the movement has always been on the other side of the spectrum from the world like night and day, to see any part of it edging toward the world is shocking. But to every other religion and denomination it's normal by this day and hour. Nobody is going to talk about that. It's the status quo and has been for close to a 100 years.

[MarkBelosa]

Originally Posted by Jason B

I joined AFF in 2007. I wasn't raised in the UPC and knew little of Christianity, much less oneness Pentecostalism prior to January of 2000. It's safe to say prior to 2007 I pretty much believed the oneness movement was monolithic, essentially all conservative, and that all OPs were "3 steppers". I knew exceptions existed, but I had little exposure to them. Anyway, as we know AFF, especially it's it's hey day was a melting pot for everything apostolic, or anyone with even the slightest connection to the movement at any time. Left, right, center, libs, conservative, ultra cons, apostates, agnostics, heretics, charismatics, charlatans, Muslims, athiests, bapticostals, etc all discussed here. Hundreds.
Over 11 years you kinda see how life unfolds, and with AFF, Facebook, and such these days you observe people's lives at a distance, wherein in the past all contact would be lost.

So here's the point. It is my observation that it seems many (most) people who have left the OP movement do in very fact make shipwreck of their faith. I'm constantly amazed by people who once stood strong for what we all believed was truth and holinessand just how far the other way they have swung. It honestly saddens me.

I say this as someone who has left myself. It breaks my heart to see all the Ex's embrace all manner of heresy, word faith charismatic, seeker, gay affirming, post modern and essentially every perversion of anything resembling even remotely sound Christian doctrine. I'm heart broken when I see people who used to live holiness look like Jan Crouch with vanity all over them. I'm heart broken when I see people who preached holiness and sensible doctrine follow the likes of Steven Furtick and Bill Johnson. I'm heart broken when I see folks strive for noteriety and do whatever is necessary to forward their ministry, their brand, their ego. People who loved God, who were good preachers. Saints who loved God, wholovrd the church, and prayer, and the people of God, and whose passion was revival. I can't believe the things I hear, read,and see. It breaks my heart the broken families. It breaks my heart that not only do they not go to an OP church, but rarely go at all, if they even believe in the most basic Christian gospel anymore.

In all honesty, this saddens me. Over and over. It's like I keep watching the same thing. And obviously I'm not saying that with a dog in the fight. I left in 2010 and have always remained in church. Pastored an independent Bible Church from 2014-2017. I've been vocal about some of my differences with OP doctrine here on this forum. But regardless of that, I hate to see people either turn away from Christ, or else claim to serve Him and yet just seemingly be the victim of a cycle of poor choices. Drugs, alcoholism, divorce, filled with hatred and cussing, life in bars and clubs. It's sad.

And honestly it happens with such frequency, I can see why old timers roll out the horror stories to make people scared of leaving.

This hasn't happened to me. And I wonder if it's because I wasn't raised in it. I converted at 18. I had no family or friends who were OPs. In fact I'm not sure I had any family or friends who attended any type of church regularly. I went from the world I to a UC UPC. And stayed 10 years, then left. And have basically been in conservative reformed Bible Churches since. A lot of similarties and obviously a few big differences.

So I wonder, why is it so many leave and just go totally bonkers? Even if it takes 5-10 years to get there, it seems they get there. Is that a by product of the OP culture and preaching? Is it because they left "the truth"? I believe it's the isolationist culture. But I'd like to hear others takes.

Regardless if the least, the end result is bad. It does make me wonder if these people who claim to have freedom wouldn't have been much better off staying their former course. I wonder how many would admit that, or think that but won't admit it. I wonder how has the internet affected this?

Maybe it's just me and sinceI don't have a history in the movement, I don't know, but it seems like in the last 15 years a mass exodus has taken place from conservative OPism. And even the UPC seems to have flipped from conservative to liberal leaning. It just seems like the ones who left, totally threw everything out. And the ones who stayed moved right to left and now mirror the larger Evangelical movement, rather than classical Pentecostal or holiness movements.

Just some random thoughts. We'll see where this goes.

Could be one or a combination of the following:
- They probably didn't have an abiding relationship with Christ
- They were probably in the church for the "wrong reasons" before they left
- Secret sins they nurtured while they were still active church goers
- Lack of support system and accountability after they decided to leave
- Losing their Christian identity (they probably identified with their former church more that they identified with Christ)
- Being deceived

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by MarkBelosa

Could be one or a combination of the following:
- They probably didn't have an abiding relationship with Christ
- They were probably in the church for the "wrong reasons" before they left
- Secret sins they nurtured while they were still active church goers
- Lack of support system and accountability after they decided to leave
- Losing their Christian identity (they probably identified with their former church more that they identified with Christ)
- Being deceived

Yes all the above. And more.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Jason B

I joined AFF in 2007. I wasn't raised in the UPC and knew little of Christianity, much less oneness Pentecostalism prior to January of 2000. It's safe to say prior to 2007 I pretty much believed the oneness movement was monolithic, essentially all conservative, and that all OPs were "3 steppers". I knew exceptions existed, but I had little exposure to them. Anyway, as we know AFF, especially it's it's hey day was a melting pot for everything apostolic, or anyone with even the slightest connection to the movement at any time. Left, right, center, libs, conservative, ultra cons, apostates, agnostics, heretics, charismatics, charlatans, Muslims, athiests, bapticostals, etc all discussed here. Hundreds.
Over 11 years you kinda see how life unfolds, and with AFF, Facebook, and such these days you observe people's lives at a distance, wherein in the past all contact would be lost.

So here's the point. It is my observation that it seems many (most) people who have left the OP movement do in very fact make shipwreck of their faith. I'm constantly amazed by people who once stood strong for what we all believed was truth and holinessand just how far the other way they have swung. It honestly saddens me.

I say this as someone who has left myself. It breaks my heart to see all the Ex's embrace all manner of heresy, word faith charismatic, seeker, gay affirming, post modern and essentially every perversion of anything resembling even remotely sound Christian doctrine. I'm heart broken when I see people who used to live holiness look like Jan Crouch with vanity all over them. I'm heart broken when I see people who preached holiness and sensible doctrine follow the likes of Steven Furtick and Bill Johnson. I'm heart broken when I see folks strive for noteriety and do whatever is necessary to forward their ministry, their brand, their ego. People who loved God, who were good preachers. Saints who loved God, wholovrd the church, and prayer, and the people of God, and whose passion was revival. I can't believe the things I hear, read,and see. It breaks my heart the broken families. It breaks my heart that not only do they not go to an OP church, but rarely go at all, if they even believe in the most basic Christian gospel anymore.

In all honesty, this saddens me. Over and over. It's like I keep watching the same thing. And obviously I'm not saying that with a dog in the fight. I left in 2010 and have always remained in church. Pastored an independent Bible Church from 2014-2017. I've been vocal about some of my differences with OP doctrine here on this forum. But regardless of that, I hate to see people either turn away from Christ, or else claim to serve Him and yet just seemingly be the victim of a cycle of poor choices. Drugs, alcoholism, divorce, filled with hatred and cussing, life in bars and clubs. It's sad.

And honestly it happens with such frequency, I can see why old timers roll out the horror stories to make people scared of leaving.

This hasn't happened to me. And I wonder if it's because I wasn't raised in it. I converted at 18. I had no family or friends who were OPs. In fact I'm not sure I had any family or friends who attended any type of church regularly. I went from the world I to a UC UPC. And stayed 10 years, then left. And have basically been in conservative reformed Bible Churches since. A lot of similarties and obviously a few big differences.

So I wonder, why is it so many leave and just go totally bonkers? Even if it takes 5-10 years to get there, it seems they get there. Is that a by product of the OP culture and preaching? Is it because they left "the truth"? I believe it's the isolationist culture. But I'd like to hear others takes.

Regardless if the least, the end result is bad. It does make me wonder if these people who claim to have freedom wouldn't have been much better off staying their former course. I wonder how many would admit that, or think that but won't admit it. I wonder how has the internet affected this?

Maybe it's just me and sinceI don't have a history in the movement, I don't know, but it seems like in the last 15 years a mass exodus has taken place from conservative OPism. And even the UPC seems to have flipped from conservative to liberal leaning. It just seems like the ones who left, totally threw everything out. And the ones who stayed moved right to left and now mirror the larger Evangelical movement, rather than classical Pentecostal or holiness movements.

Just some random thoughts. We'll see where this goes.

Why did you leave?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Why did you leave?

I was bitter.

That's always the reason right? Lol.