Meanwhile in Virginia...

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Virginia is a former sovereign republic whose proximity to Sodom on the Potomac (Washington. DC) makes it an easy target for ongoing Yankee reconstruction. The only hope for Virginia is to cede at least three counties to the District of Columbia, thus eliminating their influence in REAL Virginia. I saw today militias are forming to defend gun rights. This is going to get interesting.

I need to read the news more often. I didn’t know about this.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

This is an interesting topic. Let's go beyond that "buy a sword" verse and bring some patterns from other verses.

I see John the Baptist not telling soldiers to stop killing. I see Peter not telling Cornelius to stop killing. I see Paul even using a legion of soldiers to protect himself from the Jews, and also using a soldier analogy in the spiritual world.
I see Paul also saying that soldiers carry a sword to bring justice and we must submit to their authority.

I also see none of the Apostles or Christians, during their ministry after Pentecost, taking swords with them as they spread the Gospel. In the Old Testament, except from one instance where Samuel used a sword, the prophets didn't use to carry and use swords.

The two instances where you see the phrase "he who kills by the sword will be killed by the sword", Matthew 26:52 and Rev 13:10, are in the context of persecution. I think what the phrase really means is that when persecution comes against the saints, those that try to stop it with the sword will perish by the sword. When persecution comes, the principle I see is to flee, instead of resisting it by the sword.

All of this makes me think that the point is that if it is your job and authority in society to stop evil and bring justice by the sword, then you should use it rightfully: soldiers, officers, guards, etc.... But when you are ministering the Gospel, and bringing the word of God to the people, you should not be armed and suffer persecution if it comes.

Am I missing some passages of the Bible that go against these principles?

BTW, the verse about buying a sword has to be put in context:

[Luk 22:36-37 NKJV] 36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take [it], and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."

It is like if having swords in the group was to be used as an evidence against them as preparing a revolt against the authorities.

The civil law of these united States identifies the militia of the several states as all able-bodied males 18 and up (cut off differs by state, in Texas it is 65) who are not public officials or federal officers or non citizens. By law the militia is responsible for suppressing insurrection, repelling invasion, and upholding law and order (maintaining the peace). The militia laws were established because under the Originel Intent of the American War of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution, a professional "standing army" was anathema to freedom and liberty and suitable only for empire and tyranny. So, if Christians are to abide by the laws of the country where they live, then in America that means doing your duty as a member and supporter of the local militia and local Constitutionally elected government. And that means standing against unlawful usurpation of authority by anyone, including elected officials if they overstep their lawful powers.

As for Bible characters, Joshua is said to have the Spirit that was upon Moses, and he certainly carried a sword. Several of the judges did as well, and if I am not mistaken they functioned as prophets. Abraham was a prophet and had his own private militia which he used to wage war against several governments in the matter of Lot, and which resulted in his famous encounter with Melchizedek.

Jesus didn't tell His disciples to buy swords to create a false scenario of insurrection. That would be the job of the spooks and kooks we all know and love so well.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The civil law of these united States identifies the militia of the several states as all able-bodied males 18 and up (cut off differs by state, in Texas it is 65) who are not public officials or federal officers or non citizens. By law the militia is responsible for suppressing insurrection, repelling invasion, and upholding law and order (maintaining the peace). The militia laws were established because under the Originel Intent of the American War of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution, a professional "standing army" was anathema to freedom and liberty and suitable only for empire and tyranny. So, if Christians are to abide by the laws of the country where they live, then in America that means doing your duty as a member and supporter of the local militia and local Constitutionally elected government. And that means standing against unlawful usurpation of authority by anyone, including elected officials if they overstep their lawful powers.

As for Bible characters, Joshua is said to have the Spirit that was upon Moses, and he certainly carried a sword. Several of the judges did as well, and if I am not mistaken they functioned as prophets. Abraham was a prophet and had his own private militia which he used to wage war against several governments in the matter of Lot, and which resulted in his famous encounter with Melchizedek.

Jesus didn't tell His disciples to buy swords to create a false scenario of insurrection. That would be the job of the spooks and kooks we all know and love so well.

What is your explanation of:

37 "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."

Do you think the reason for the sword Jesus gives is because of the "For the things concerning Me have an end.", meaning, this is about to end and you must protect yourself for what it is coming?

I always associated the sword thing with the "And He was numbered with the transgressors", but I'm curious to hear another possible interpretation.

Also, do you recall a specific prophet working as a messenger of the word of God carrying a sword? Abraham was a prophet but I don't recall him being sent by God to speak his word to people. The same for the judges. I guess it depends on the kind of mission you are sent to.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

What is your explanation of:

37 "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."

Do you think the reason for the sword Jesus gives is because of the "For the things concerning Me have an end.", meaning, this is about to end and you must protect yourself for what it is coming?

I always associated the sword thing with the "And He was numbered with the transgressors", but I'm curious to hear another possible interpretation.

Also, do you recall a specific prophet working as a messenger of the word of God carrying a sword? Abraham was a prophet but I don't recall him being sent by God to speak his word to people. The same for the judges. I guess it depends on the kind of mission you are sent to.

Genesis 14:14 Abraham went to battle to rescue Lot.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

What is your explanation of:

37 "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."

Do you think the reason for the sword Jesus gives is because of the "For the things concerning Me have an end.", meaning, this is about to end and you must protect yourself for what it is coming?

I always associated the sword thing with the "And He was numbered with the transgressors", but I'm curious to hear another possible interpretation.

Also, do you recall a specific prophet working as a messenger of the word of God carrying a sword? Abraham was a prophet but I don't recall him being sent by God to speak his word to people. The same for the judges. I guess it depends on the kind of mission you are sent to.

He was prophesied to be (falsely accused of being) considered a transgressor. His disciples therefore would likely be (falsely) accused likewise. So it sounds to me like He was telling them "provide a basic means of defense lest you wind up all getting lynched." The things written concerning Him (His arrest, death, etc) had an end, a goal, a final predetermined outcome, which included His resurrection victory. If all His disciples were lynched along with Him, where would we all be now?

Peter attempted to interfere with Christ's arrest, but that was contrary to The Plan. This also threatened to result in the immediate death of not only Peter, but everyone else there as well. So he was told to put his sword up. Put it up, not get rid of it.

The new testament scriptures are not the entirety of the Word of God. So we should not expect EVERYTHING pertaining to righteousness, correction, reproof, and instruction that the man of God may be perfect, to be limited to the new testament writings only. And the old testament contains lessons (for our learning and admonition) that identify disarmament as a sign of conquest and - in the case of God's people - a sign of Divine judgment against sin.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

What is your explanation of:

37 "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."

Do you think the reason for the sword Jesus gives is because of the "For the things concerning Me have an end.", meaning, this is about to end and you must protect yourself for what it is coming?

I always associated the sword thing with the "And He was numbered with the transgressors", but I'm curious to hear another possible interpretation.

Also, do you recall a specific prophet working as a messenger of the word of God carrying a sword? Abraham was a prophet but I don't recall him being sent by God to speak his word to people. The same for the judges. I guess it depends on the kind of mission you are sent to.

A prophet is, iin the most general sense, anyone sent by God on a missiin. More particularly, a prophet is someone who prophesies. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are called prophets because they had communications with God and were His representatives in this earth.

So where does that place Gideon?

Or Othniel?

And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother.
Judges:3:9

And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the LORD delivered Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushanrishathaim.
Judges:3:10

What about Ehud? Shamgar?

And let's not forget David, a man after God's own heart, prototype of the Messiah, who prophesied a huge chunk of the Psalms, who was given revelation (like Moses was) concerning the Temple and the updated Levitical worship to go along with it, who under Divine inspiration said this:

Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
Psalm:144:1

My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me.
Psalm:144:2

And this:

It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect.
Psalm:18:32

He maketh my feet like hinds' feet, and setteth me upon my high places.
Psalm:18:33

He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.
Psalm:18:34

Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great.
Psalm:18:35

Thou hast enlarged my steps under me, that my feet did not slip.
Psalm:18:36

I have pursued mine enemies, and overtaken them: neither did I turn again till they were consumed.
Psalm:18:37

I have wounded them that they were not able to rise: they are fallen under my feet.
Psalm:18:38

For thou hast girded me with strength unto the battle: thou hast subdued under me those that rose up against me.
Psalm:18:39

Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies; that I might destroy them that hate me.
Psalm:18:40

They cried, but there was none to save them: even unto the LORD, but he answered them not.
Psalm:18:41

Then did I beat them small as the dust before the wind: I did cast them out as the dirt in the streets.
Psalm:18:42

Now, David was not allowed to build the Temple, in part because of his military activities. The builder of the temple would be his son, Solomon. But there are a lot deeper significances to all that than merely "swords bad, disarmament good."

[coksiw]

Esaias,

I definitely believe that the whole Scripture is the Word of God, inspired, and useful to training in righteousness. However, the NT superceeds the OT, in the sense that the new covenant is greater and the mission is not only different but also greater and with a different dimension.

The people of God during the Law was an actual nation, with borders, and everything that comes with it. The church of God is a spiritual nation spread through out many nations. The nation of Israel was founded, established, and constituted by God himself through Moses. A nation with borders needed to fight against flesh and blood. We are not that Israel, we can't compare USA to them. We are the Church of God inside this nation of USA. The Lord is not going to anoint anyone of us with the same anointing He gave David to fight. He might protect us while we do our duties as law enforcers, but we are not anointed for that job as David and the Judges were. The gifts of the Spirit does not include fighting against flesh and blood. We are filled by the Holy Spirit to walk right and to minister to other for salvation and edification.

I don't see examples in the NT of followers of Jesus organizing themselves to fight and resist persecution. Two swords were not enough for 12 disciples. I recognize that the argument I presented earlier that the OT prophets didn't carry sword was kind of week. I was thinking of Jeremiah, Isaiah, Elijah, Elisha, etc...

Would you fight against persecution with guns? For example, terrorist attacks against congregations, like mass shootings? That's something that it is becoming common.

I recognize also that defending against crime is another reason to have guns. The NT doesn't present example of Christians defending themselves against crime, or clear teachings about doing it. We do have some verses about authorized people to stop evil, but nothing about Christians doing it themselves. We do also have verses about not resisting evil in the Gospel and in the Epistle of James with a variety of interpretations to it.

I go back to my original idea that an organized societal effort to bring justice and peace, where Christians are also involved, is a good thing; and law enforcement will be part of the jobs. Other than that, we are not called to be a physical nation on our own, but to just live inside a nation, under its own laws.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by coksiw

...

We do also have verses about not resisting evil in the Gospel and in the Epistle of James with a variety of interpretations to it.

...

May I ask what passage in James you are referring to? I did a quick search, but failed to find anything. I readily admit my search skills are not the greatest. Ha!

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Ehud

May I ask what passage in James you are referring to? I did a quick search, but failed to find anything. I readily admit my search skills are not the greatest. Ha!

Jas 5:6 - Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Jas 5:6 - Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you

Thank you!