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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #261  
Old 08-08-2022, 08:43 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
I thought that post was addressed to Coksiw. Am I wrong?
Yes, you are wrong. Sorry for the confusion. I meant anyone.
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Last edited by mfblume; 08-08-2022 at 08:47 PM.
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  #262  
Old 08-08-2022, 09:13 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Yes, you are wrong. Sorry for the confusion. I meant anyone.
No. I AM right. You were responding to Coksiw.

So, my brother, you are the one who is wrong.

Please apologize, or not.
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  #263  
Old 08-08-2022, 09:48 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I was not offtrack. You do not follow through logically with your examples. You said that people who pay tithes are blessed due to their faith and God's mercy, then compared that with trinitarians who pray for the sick and see healing. You explained that it is not right for the ministry to forego working, unless I mistook you. And so when I said people gave tithes and were blessed, you responded and said it was God's mercy just as trinitarians pray for the sick and are healed, which does not condone their doctrine of trinity. You, therefore, equated trinitarian doctrine with believer's ideas to give tithes, and, in turn, equated incorrect doctrine of trinity with incorrect doctrine of tithing. The only reason that you would make such a comparison and then summarize it by saying trinitarians who pray for the sick in Jesus' name are seeing God's mercy which does not confirm their doctrine is to say that God's mercy sees people blessed who give tithes which does not confirm their belief that they should give tithes. Seeing as you believe giving tithes is wrong, then by virtue of your own use of the comparison with trinitarianism and belief in giving tithes you are saying belief in giving tithes is as wrong a trinitarianism. Seeing as people should not give tithes according to you, then your comparison implies that trinitarians should not pray for the sick. Otherwise, you should not have used that example.
You almost got it . All comparisons, when you go into close details, you will find enough differences. Comparisons have limitations. Your conclusion about my statements are incorrect. If you want to keep going with the comparison, this is a better conclusion to what I said: people should abandon tithing and just give, as Trinitarian should abandon the trinity and just worship the one true God.

Quote:
The fact is you are wrong in saying that it is God's mercy that trinitarians successfully pray for healing as it is God's mercy that tithers are blessed when they tithe. It is not God's mercy, it is honouring FAITH.
OK. I think it is both. For me, even God responding to our faith is an act of mercy and grace. I believe those that give tithing as an investment to get blessed back by God have the wrong mentality and it is close to the modern prosperity doctrine. Those that give out of love are the ones with the right attitude, whether they believe 10% is the minimum or not.

Quote:
Who said that everyone who gives tithes are giving to obedience of a minimum of 10%?
Most do, as the preacher taught them and threatened them.

[QUOTE]
I do not give tithes for that reason, as I have said many times.
[/QUOTE
Good for you

Quote:
And seeing as YOU ADMIT these people have faith, then you must stop telling them to stop giving tithes, because God sure is not telling to stop.
Well, if the have faith to the point of moving mountains, but they don't have love, they are nothing. If they give tithing and as result can't afford to do what they ought to be doing according to the Scriptures, they are doing wrong.

Quote:
Who said the 10% doctrine is right? Who said that people who give tithes are living by a 10% doctrine. If anything, they are living by the doctrine of faith that you give and and you shall be blessed. But I have been trying to tell you that and you keep missing it, again.
Nope. I said you can't state...
I'm not missing it. I have lived among tithers for over two decades.
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  #264  
Old 08-08-2022, 09:53 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
According to Paul, the Corinthians were supporting teachers in their church because they had the ways and means to do so, but had not been supporting him. According to Paul, they were accusing him of not being a true apostle because he was not being supported, as though his conscience was allegedly telling him he should not take an income from the church because he knew he was not an actually apostle. According to Paul, ministers of the word should be able to forego working if the church is able to provide support to that end.
OK. I disagree, but it is not relevant to this discussion at this point.

Quote:
No. he is contextualizing all of that chapter to HIMSELF that he was an actual apostle despite the fact that he was not being supported and refused to forego work unlike the other apostles.
Correct. We agree on that. Yet the context is the comparison with other apostles, not to "all ministry"

The only "right" to forgo work ever taught and clarified in the NT when all verses are taken into account, is to those the Apostles, which is what "preaching the Gospel" meant in the context of Jesus saying those words. If any, it can be applied to church planters, true evangelists, or what we call today missionaries.

Quote:
So, you admit the right of the apostle Paul was to take a full-supporting income which he simply chose to forego?
Absolutely!
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  #265  
Old 08-08-2022, 09:56 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

QUOTE=mfblume;1610737]According to Paul, the Corinthians were supporting teachers in their church because they had the ways and means to do so, but had not been supporting him. According to Paul, they were accusing him of not being a true apostle because he was not being supported, as though his conscience was allegedly telling him he should not take an income from the church because he knew he was not an actually apostle. According to Paul, ministers of the word should be able to forego working if the church is able to provide support to that end. [/QUOTE]

Brother Blume,

Letís talk about exegesis concerning the quote above all in bold for your convenience. Paul never said that they were supporting teachers in their church. You said that. That is NOT exegesis, it is rather the opposite, eisegesis. Allow me to post the scripture that you claim to have exegeted this from.

[1] Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
[2] If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
[3] Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
[4] Have we not power to eat and to drink?
[5] Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
[6] Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
[7] Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
[8] Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
[9] For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
[10] Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
[11] If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
[12] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
[13] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the alter are partakers with the alter?
[14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
[15] But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
[16] For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

So where exactly do you exegete from this passage that they were supporting local church teachers?

And while weíre here on this subject, do you Brother Blume share the tithes with ALL of the Sunday school teachers in your church? Because that seems to be what youíre saying that Paul is teaching here. So, are you sharing tithes with them . . .

ALL?

If not, this sure seems to be hypocrisy to me.

Allow me to cut and paste the definitions of exegesis and eisegesis.

Exegesis: especially : an explanation or critical interpretation of a text

Eisegesis: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas

Do you see the difference? The idea that Paul was talking about teachers in the local congregation being supported by the church is in your head. Itís not found in the text. The text is referring to apostles (sent ones).

QUOTE=mfblume;1610737]

No. he is contextualizing all of that chapter to HIMSELF that he was an actual apostle despite the fact that he was not being supported and refused to forego work unlike the other apostles.



So, you admit the right of the apostle Paul was to take a full-supporting

income

which he simply chose to forego?[/QUOTE]

You are at it again. The text doesnít say a thing about income. That is in your head. Paul is talking about food and drink. You are thinking money. Paul is talking about apostles and you are talking about pastors. Another thing that Paul never mentions in this passage, which is the subject of this thread, is tithes. I wonder why.

Could it be because he well knows that as a Benjamite he is NOT eligible to receive tithes?

Paul is literally writing about the law here, and he doesnít invoke the law of tithing. Odd right?

Not odd at all!! He well knows that he would be breaking the very law he is invoking if he accepted tithes.
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  #266  
Old Yesterday, 07:59 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
No. I AM right. You were responding to Coksiw.

So, my brother, you are the one who is wrong.

Please apologize, or not.
Are you serious? I know what I intended in my note about this. I meant for ANYONE to respond and give a verse by verse exegesis of 1 Cor 9, and show me where I erred in my presentation, why I erred and what the verse says what you think it is saying. I will NOT apologize for something I did not do, whether you think I did it or not.

I responded to the first post after my last and will move and deal with the remaining posts listed afterward where it seems some exegesis was laid out, when I get the time soon.
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