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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #41  
Old 03-04-2008, 07:53 PM
Jason B Jason B is offline
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blessing

one more thing for now

in the age of grace we are not blessed or cursed based on the percentage of our income we give. we are blessed accorinding to what we give-this is a new testament, scriptual fact. He that sows bountifully, shal reap bountifully, he that reaps sparingly shall also reap sparingly. The fact is if someone give $10 they will be blessed for that $10, if it was small to them, the blessing will likewise be very small, but if someone give quite a bit, the will be likewise blessed. Gloryseeker, this is why I believe you are so blessed, not because you give a certain percentage, but because you sow bountifully. I will admit, I highly admire your thoughts and goals on giving. 6 months to God after any pay raise, I have never heard that, to me that is amazing. Like i said God has blessed me, and to be quite honest, I don't even feel worthy to recieve it, and he has blessed me above what I have been able to give. His goodness and love amaze me. Truly I do not deserve anything e gives me, i feel like the woman who asked for a crumb that fell from the table, yet he can me the main course.
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  #42  
Old 03-04-2008, 08:22 PM
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ApostolicTexas ApostolicTexas is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

I am in agreement with you Jason.Tithing is not a command to the NT christian.It is a good option if you can afford to do it as God will bless those who can give it.So many things have been taken out of context and tithing is one of those things
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  #43  
Old 03-04-2008, 08:24 PM
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ApostolicTexas ApostolicTexas is offline
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Re: blessing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason View Post
one more thing for now

in the age of grace we are not blessed or cursed based on the percentage of our income we give. we are blessed accorinding to what we give-this is a new testament, scriptual fact. He that sows bountifully, shal reap bountifully, he that reaps sparingly shall also reap sparingly. The fact is if someone give $10 they will be blessed for that $10, if it was small to them, the blessing will likewise be very small, but if someone give quite a bit, the will be likewise blessed. Gloryseeker, this is why I believe you are so blessed, not because you give a certain percentage, but because you sow bountifully. I will admit, I highly admire your thoughts and goals on giving. 6 months to God after any pay raise, I have never heard that, to me that is amazing. Like i said God has blessed me, and to be quite honest, I don't even feel worthy to recieve it, and he has blessed me above what I have been able to give. His goodness and love amaze me. Truly I do not deserve anything e gives me, i feel like the woman who asked for a crumb that fell from the table, yet he can me the main course.
I can testify to this fact..You give little you will be blessed little..you give a lot..you will be blessed a lot.You can never outgive God and He will never owe you anything.
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  #44  
Old 03-05-2008, 09:09 AM
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ChristopherHall ChristopherHall is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

Gloryseeker,

Right now the most painful debt we have is my student loan. Praise God we got the wife’s paid off. We’ve never had excessive credit card debt or anything like that. The cost in living is also eating us alive right now, not to mention we just had a baby over a year ago.

Gloryseeker, I’m not a health and wealth prosperity gospel preacher. I don’t believe in the “magic tithe”. God was speaking to Israel as a nation not as individuals and not to mention it was under the Old Covenant.

Many things can be found in the Old Testament and drug into the New Testament. However, we cannot base an argument from silence. We know Abraham tithed once. We know that Jacob tithed once. We know they understood the principle of tithing. However, we don’t see them “tithing” as a practice. But even if we wanted to assume they tithed as a practice, there wasn’t a Law requiring Abraham or Jacob to do so. They purposed to give out of a willing heart, not a requirement or commandment.

What we need is an example of a Christian in the New Testament Church (Post-Pentecost) “tithing” or a command to “tithe” to be mentioned in the Epistles by Paul, John, Peter, or someone. If it’s not there…it’s not commanded under the New Testament. We’re not talking about stories discussing an entirely different subject in an entirely different context where the tithe is just mentioned and the idea of a command inferred by the reader….we’re talking about solid, biblical, hermeneutic establishing the tithe as a command under the New Covenant.

Take in mind…we cannot impress our 21st century idea of church into 1st century biblical history. During the first 300 years of Christianity there weren’t any “church buildings” and Christians were typically establishing churches in homes, training new disciples, and then they were being dispatched into evangelism and were on the move. They didn’t settle down into a building with a building program and get a bunch of people to fill pews and provide a salary for the pastor. Instead these “churches” typically never numbered more than an average of between 20 to 30 people at most. They were rooted in homes and had multiple elders overseeing the assembly serving as teachers. All, including the elders, were expected to work for their living; however those who “preach the gospel” (evangelists) were to be sustained by offerings that would get them to their destination, supported by the local congregation founded there, and then offerings were provided by that congregation to get them to their next destination.

If the New Testament Church was expected to practice tithing, they would have tithed according to the Law. That means they would have tithed of monetary income, harvest, and livestock. None of this is recorded in the NT. In the OT the tithes were gathered and stored in the storehouse or in the treasury of the Temple. Where did the early church, who only gathered in homes (for the first 300 years), store all this stuff? It’s never mentioned and we have no idea if indeed they did tithe (which they didn’t). The NT church only knew and practiced generous love offerings. These offerings went to relieve the widows and to sustain those called to give their entire lives to evangelism.

Then there is the issue of the Gentiles. Gentiles weren’t familiar with Old Testament “tithing”. We are left asking, if the tithe was a commandment, believed and practiced in the early church, why don’t we see Paul or someone explaining or teaching these principles (to the Gentiles in the book of Acts or in the Epistles) who didn’t have and were not familiar with the OT?

I fear you’re unknowingly imposing our modern “churchianity” on the biblical New Testament Church.

All that is asked for is a single example or direct reference or command regarding “tithing” in the New Testament. Certainly it would be mentioned in a New Testament context.

Historically speaking theologians and historians can’t find any evidence of Christians “tithing” until it was mandated by the Catholic Church to support their Bishops, Cathedrals, and political projects. The idea of tithing was initially rejected. Eventually it was mentioned in councils at Tours in 567 and at Mâcon in 585. The teaching of tithing was finally formally recognized under Pope Adrian I in 787.

Let’s be careful not to impose our models and our systems into the 1st century biblical text.
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  #45  
Old 03-05-2008, 10:13 AM
DividedThigh DividedThigh is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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Would consider sending them to me?
you wish, lol,dt
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  #46  
Old 03-05-2008, 10:30 AM
gloryseeker gloryseeker is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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Originally Posted by ChristopherHall View Post
Gloryseeker,

Gloryseeker, I’m not a health and wealth prosperity gospel preacher. I don’t believe in the “magic tithe”.
Hey, its a discussion of opinions, don't sweat it! It's not an area that we are going to agree on.

The only thing I would leave you with is Jesus' words to the Centurion:

Matt 8:13
13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour. (KJV)

We get what we can believe.
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  #47  
Old 03-05-2008, 10:44 AM
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ChristopherHall ChristopherHall is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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Originally Posted by gloryseeker View Post
Hey, its a discussion of opinions, don't sweat it! It's not an area that we are going to agree on.

The only thing I would leave you with is Jesus' words to the Centurion:

Matt 8:13
13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour. (KJV)

We get what we can believe.
I understand, but the question was…is tithing a command?

Well…those who say it is have to demonstrate where it’s commanded under the New Covenant. Is there an example of just one Christian tithing in the NT after the Church was established? Did any writer of any Epistle mention tithing as a command or explain it to Gentiles who would no doubt need to be educated on the matter? What did they tithe? Where did they store these tithes? How did this facilitate the needs of highly mobile churches gathering in small home based groups?

I think as with all things, we need to test it against the Scriptures. What does the Scripture teach regarding tithing and the New Testament Church? Is it a command? If we say it is…the burden of proof requires that we offer evidence of this. Why? Because if something is “commanded” there isn’t any flexibility on the issue. If something is a command, to let it go undone is “sin” and “sin” is a salvational issue. My previous Pastor essentially gave our tithes back to us and admonished we pay off our debts. According to some…he sinned….and we sinned….that’s a salvation issue.

So we await a biblical exegesis on the subject based on the New Covenant. Not inferences. Inferences are subjective and often in the eyes of the reader. Many believe the Scriptures infer a “trinity”. Inference isn’t a sound foundation for a doctrine teaching that something is a “command”. Where is it commanded? Where do we find examples of it taking place?
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  #48  
Old 03-05-2008, 12:09 PM
gloryseeker gloryseeker is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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Originally Posted by ChristopherHall View Post
I understand, but the question was…is tithing a command?

Well…those who say it is have to demonstrate where it’s commanded under the New Covenant.
I guess where our arguments separate from one another is that my view is that God does not make suggestions. Everything in the Word is a command. If it is Bible it's a command. Now, in the command God gives us a free choice to follow His way or go another way.

So every argument that I have seen against tithing has been some theological, historical, abstract, interpretation of why God doesn't mean what He says.

I guess the reason it works for me is that I just assume God knows what He is talking about and so I do it.

I see agreement from OT to NT in the tithe and I don't make excuses for it.

In reality, it works! You are/have struggled financially and you look for a reason not to create another bill. I have struggled in the past and found the answer. It took faith and a willingness to step out into the unknown.

It is amazing to me why Christians always say you can't out give God, but then look for ways to not give.

I live to give and I give to live!
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  #49  
Old 03-05-2008, 01:12 PM
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ChristopherHall ChristopherHall is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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Originally Posted by gloryseeker View Post
I guess where our arguments separate from one another is that my view is that God does not make suggestions. Everything in the Word is a command. If it is Bible it's a command. Now, in the command God gives us a free choice to follow His way or go another way.
The Bible forbids wearing mixed fabrics. The Bible commands a man to marry his brother’s wife to raise up children in his brother’s name…even if he’s already married. The Bible commands animal sacrifices. The Bible commands the third year’s tithe to be given to the storehouse for the poor and the widows. The Bible has two additional and distinct tithes, one for the priesthood the other for the temple. The Bible commands that a man who picks up sticks on the Sabbath day be stoned to death.

Bro…every command of Scripture is given in a specific context. The tithe’s purpose was to fund the Temple system and the storehouse. We don’t have that system any longer.

Quote:
So ever argument that I have seen against tithing has been some theological, historical, abstract, interpretation of why God doesn't mean what He says.
No, it’s a studied systematic exegesis of the Bible’s teaching on tithing in its Scriptural context. The history and surrounding data is only indicators of cultural practice.

Quote:
I guess the reason it works for me is that I just assume God knows what He is talking about and so I do it.
No. I believe you’re faith is sincere and “tithing” is a Scriptural “principle” and God has chosen to bless you for yoking up with him in your finances. The choice to tithe is like entering a covenant. Essentially that’s what Abraham was doing with the King of Salem. He was establishing a covenantal relationship by sharing the spoils of Sodom. But Abraham wasn’t “commanded” to do so. It was Abraham’s choice to yoke up with the King of Salem with his increase. The issue isn’t so much that tithing isn’t a biblical principle. The issue is that we don’t find anything in the NT stating that it was a “command” or required. Certainly those who do choose to enter a covenantal relationship with God in their finances will be blessed. I believe that all Christians should be encouraged to do so. However, since it’s not a “command” they don’t sin if they can’t at the moment. Certainly they should commit to contribute something to the work of the Lord. And certainly God will bless them as they exercise their faith. I know people who couldn’t afford to tithe who committed to giving what the Lord was leading them to give. In their faithfulness they were blessed and gave more. Today they’re giving more than their tithes and many are being blessed. But it’s not because tithing was a “command”.

Nevertheless…we still don’t see it in the NT Church of the Bible thus lending to the belief that tithing is wonderful, but not commanded.

Quote:
I see agreement from OT to NT in the tithe and I don't make excuses for it.
Can you offer a New Testament example (or precedent) and/or teaching regarding the tithe in the Epistles? Yes or no?

Quote:
In reality, it works! You are/have struggled financially and you look for a reason not to create another bill. I have struggled in the past and found the answer. It took faith and a willingness to step out into the unknown.
Amen. I’m not questioning that it brings blessings…I, and others, are asking for evidence that it is a “command” in the NT Church.

Quote:
It is amazing to me why Christians always say you can't out give God, but then look for ways to not give.
Nobody is looking for ways not to give. The issue is that if it is a “command” it’s a Heaven or Hell issue. If it is a “command” it would meaning that one better not even think they can go to Heaven unless they are currently able to begin tithing immediately.

Quote:
I live to give and I give to live!
I used to believe what you believe. God will send the storm and in it you will find that God’s not impressed with performance, and God isn’t keeping a tab. You will find humility and understanding toward those who are truly “in need” (instead of judging or casting blame). You will experience a higher dimension of God’s grace that will inspire you to give even more…not out of obeying a command…but out of love.
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  #50  
Old 03-05-2008, 01:27 PM
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Sam Sam is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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Originally Posted by ChristopherHall View Post
...
Historically speaking theologians and historians can’t find any evidence of Christians “tithing” until it was mandated by the Catholic Church to support their Bishops, Cathedrals, and political projects. The idea of tithing was initially rejected. Eventually it was mentioned in councils at Tours in 567 and at Mâcon in 585. The teaching of tithing was finally formally recognized under Pope Adrian I in 787.

Let’s be careful not to impose our models and our systems into the 1st century biblical text.
So, tithing as taught in churches today is just another Romish doctrine brought over from the Roman Catholic church like purgatory, use of statues in worship, division into clergy and laity, and other such stuff.
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