Removing Zionism From the Chruch

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by CalledOut238

I would ask that you clarify this statement. The kingdom of God is Spiritual; not Earthly, nor Israel. Not wanting to be contentious, but my understanding differs.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, (The kingdom of God cometh not with observation.)

Jesus clearly states you cannot see the kingdom of God with a natural eye. If you are not born again you cannot see the kingdom of God. You need the Holy Ghost to see this Kingdom.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, (the kingdom of God is within you.)

Jesus identifies that the kingdom of God in within us. By the seed of Abraham; through faith, being born again into the kingdom of God.

Selah

Psalm 114:1-2 identifies Israel as God's Kingdom on this earth. It always was and still is spiritual, because a dominion of a king (KingDOM) is a jurisdiction, a people in covenant with God.

One must be born again to enter the Kingdom. That is, one must be born again, begotten by the Word, to enter covenant with God through Christ. That is the new covenant. And the new covenant was made with Judah and Israel (Hebrews ch. 8), although others may also enter (Isaiah ch. 56:1-8).

So the Kingdom of God in this world is new covenant Israel.

The term Kingdom of God also refers to the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:50-54), which is when the Kingdom comes in its fullness.

A kingdom is the dominion or jurisdiction of a king, it is those who are subject to the king's laws and who enjoy his protection and guidance, by virtue of the regal covenant between Sovereign and his subjects. It also includes the lands which he rules over, as well as any lands to which he holds title though they be not submitted to him (yet).

[Esaias]

The parable of the certain householder in Matthew ch 21:33-44 explains this truth very well. Notice in the parable that the vineyard is the Kingdom (v. 43). According to Psalm 80 and Isaiah 5 (especially vs 7) the vineyard is Israel. Israel at the time of Christ had been "lent out to husbandmen" ie rulers, who had rebelled against the Owner, killed His messengers, and would eventually kill His Son in order to seize the inheritance, etc. But they would be destroyed and the vineyard (kingdom) given to another nation (other than Judea).

So again, the Kingdom is the vineyard, and the vineyard is Israel, God's people in covenant with Him.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

help me understand the concept of the various *return of the Jews*

When were the two times they returned?
I thought only once since the Babylonian captivity if you don't count the 1948 return.

1948? How does 1948 compare with Ezra 2:59-62?

You see that's how the Bible documents a return of Judeans after the Babylonian captivity. That never ever happened when Europeans laid claim to what they now call Israel. No one today can show lineage which connects them with actual tribes of Israel, let alone Judea. If Ezra and Nehemiah were alive today they would be amazed on how we determine a descendant of Israel.

[Esaias]

As for not seeing the kingdom with the natural eye, Jesus actually said no such thing. He said the kingdom of God does not come with observation, neither do they say "Here!" or "There!", because the Kingdom is in your midst. In the midst of who? The ones He was talking to, the Pharisees. What was in their midst? He was. Where the King is, the Kingdom is also.

The Kingdom is wherever the Christ is. Therefore its coming is not announced as being over "here" or over "there". Immediately after telling the Pharisees this, He turns to His disciples and explains (Luke ch. 17:22-37). In His explanation He equates the "here and there" with people claiming Christ is here or there. But He warns His disciples not to follow them.

So then, "the kingdom of God does not come with observation" does not mean it cannot be seen with the naked eye.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

The problem is I am looking for the descendants of Abraham and people are so interrelated that genetically they don't exist, you can't find them.

Instead the church is Abraham's heirs by faith in God's promises.

So, therefore, the people that we gave the land of Israel to in 1948 are cultural Jews not the heirs of Abraham.

So, we can't use 1948 as a fulfillment of prophecy.

which means dispensationalism hasn't a clue what it's talking about.

Wow!!!!!

Please forgive me dear lady, I missed this post.

My apologies forsooth!

[Amanah]

[CalledOut238]

Here is how I understand Covenant and Kingdom eschatology. I will keep it brief knowing this cannot answer everything.

The Abrahamic Covenant gave him the land of Canaan.

Genesis 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

God foretells Abraham that his children will be taken from the promise land.

Genesis 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

The Mosaic Covenant returned the children of Israel back to their land. This is the first regathering back to the promise land.

Exodus 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

The Davidic Covenant was an archetype of the Messianic Covenant. The Abrahamic people were blessed by the Mosaic Covenant blessings insofar as the Davidic king keeps the law. But Solomon fell to sin causing the Kingdom to be divided and judged.

Nehemiah 1:8 Remember, I beseech thee, the word that thou commandedst thy servant Moses, saying, If ye transgress, I will scatter you abroad among the nations:

This sets up the second gathering into the land of Israel from Babylon.

Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

The next verses confirm a different work of putting the Holy Spirit within his children.

Ezekiel 36: 26 A new heart also will I give you, (and a new spirit will I put within you): and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Ezekiel declares Jesus; as the Messiah, the King of Kings. You would have to deny that Jesus is the prophesied King of Ezekiel to believe these scriptures refer the Jews of today.

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; (and one king shall be king to them all): and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Ephesians 2:20-22 tells us that the tabernacle of David is a spiritual temple, not one made by man. It’s a temple uniting the house of Israel; the house of Judah, and Gentiles together.

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The Kingdom of Israel with the Abrahamic children following the Mosaic Covenant; and being led by a Davidic King, were types and shadows for the Kingdom of God. The eschatological Kingdom of God was not the Kingdom of Israel.

Selah

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by CalledOut238

Here is how I understand Covenant and Kingdom eschatology. I will keep it brief knowing this cannot answer everything.

The Abrahamic Covenant gave him the land of Canaan.

Genesis 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

God foretells Abraham that his children will be taken from the promise land.

Genesis 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

The Mosaic Covenant returned the children of Israel back to their land. This is the first regathering back to the promise land.

Exodus 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

The Davidic Covenant was an archetype of the Messianic Covenant. The Abrahamic people were blessed by the Mosaic Covenant blessings insofar as the Davidic king keeps the law. But Solomon fell to sin causing the Kingdom to be divided and judged.

Nehemiah 1:8 Remember, I beseech thee, the word that thou commandedst thy servant Moses, saying, If ye transgress, I will scatter you abroad among the nations:

This sets up the second gathering into the land of Israel from Babylon.

Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

The next verses confirm a different work of putting the Holy Spirit within his children.

Ezekiel 36: 26 A new heart also will I give you, (and a new spirit will I put within you): and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Ezekiel declares Jesus; as the Messiah, the King of Kings. You would have to deny that Jesus is the prophesied King of Ezekiel to believe these scriptures refer the Jews of today.

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; (and one king shall be king to them all): and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Ephesians 2:20-22 tells us that the tabernacle of David is a spiritual temple, not one made by man. It’s a temple uniting the house of Israel; the house of Judah, and Gentiles together.

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The Kingdom of Israel with the Abrahamic children following the Mosaic Covenant; and being led by a Davidic King, were types and shadows for the Kingdom of God. The eschatological Kingdom of God was not the Kingdom of Israel.

Selah

I agree with all you wrote except your final statements regarding Israel and the Kingdom of God, because of this simple line of thought:

Christians are in the new covenant, and are in the Kingdom of Christ, which is the Kingdom of God. Christ is king because He has ascended to the throne of David as Messiah, and reigns over Israel. Thus, new covenant Israel is the Kingdom of God in this world today.

Luke ch 1:32-33 seals it, for me anyway.

[CalledOut238]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I agree with all you wrote except your final statements regarding Israel and the Kingdom of God, because of this simple line of thought:

Christians are in the new covenant, and are in the Kingdom of Christ, which is the Kingdom of God. Christ is king because He has ascended to the throne of David as Messiah, and reigns over Israel. Thus, new covenant Israel is the Kingdom of God in this world today.

Luke ch 1:32-33 seals it, for me anyway.

and reigns over Israel. Thus, new covenant Israel is the Kingdom of God in this world today.

The Lord reigns over ALL! Sorry, I'm not into Jewish Fairy Tales.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by CalledOut238

The Lord reigns over ALL! Sorry, I'm not into Jewish Fairy Tales.

So Luke is a Jewish fairy tale? Christ on the throne of David is a Jewish fairy tale? Reigning over the House of Jacob is a Jewish fairy tale?

Laughable.