Did God create the Word?

[Michael The Disciple]

Part 3

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Who said this? Was it not Jesus Christ? Is he not saying he is the beginning of the creation of God?

He is saying the same thing about himself that we saw in Hebrews 1:3, Ephesians 3:9, and Colossians 1:13-17.

Do we have the right to overthrow what Jesus and the Apostles taught? Many think they do. Jesus confirmed what Paul taught the Churches fully agreeing with it.

Now does this mean Jesus is not the ETERNAL FATHER?. No, it does not. What it means is that modern Oneness has not taken ALL THE COUNSEL OF GOD in a serious way.

Instead of accepting the words of Jesus and the Apostles and digging deeper to understand how that the concept of Jesus being Creator and at the same time created can be true they simply ignore or try to make Jesus words say something else.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So the first thing God created was the Son? Back in eternity past? Eternal Son? Wow.

The first thing God made was the image. Paul looking back calls that The Son. To Paul the Logos and Son were interchangeable terms. You cant make it read otherwise. Unless of course you accuse Paul of teaching false.

I believe after he said all things were made by the Son, he then said who the Son WAS at that time.

Who BEING the brightness of his glory and the EXPRESS IMAGE OF......HIS....PERSON.

This express image, image of the invisible God, firstborn of creation all speak of Christ WHEN HE WAS STILL THE LOGOS.

Before he was made flesh.

I do not teach Eternal Son. I teach the firstborn of all creation and the beginning of the creation of God.

However this is simply a discussion of THE LOGOS and how it was WITH GOD and WAS GOD.

If I were teaching on how Jesus was the one who the Logos WAS WITH I would be teaching him as the Eternal Father. The only God in the Universe.

Oneness teachers of today cannot deal with all scripture on the topic of who Jesus is. Many do good up until it comes to the Logos. I have seen them crushed by Trins enough times to know this is true.

Not that Trins are right, but the Oneness look weak because they dont deal with the scriptures in a complete manner.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Was this like a spacesuit God made back in eternity past?

I'm not being funny.

I would call it a celestial body. The angel of YHWH.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I would call it a celestial body. The angel of YHWH.

So this celestial body is what incarnated? Celestial as in heavenly? Heavenly flesh? Jesus is heavenly flesh incarnate?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So this celestial body is what incarnated? Celestial as in heavenly? Heavenly flesh? Jesus is heavenly flesh incarnate?

Yes the celestial body became flesh. To my knowledge there is no "heavenly flesh".

Paul put it like this.

Phil. 2:5-9

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

The logos was made flesh. The form of God became the form of man.

The word likeness means "form".

[Esaias]

Hmm...

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I know, right? Now we're hearing about heavenly flesh becoming human? I wonder what's next?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Whatever the word was it was WITH GOD. Whatever the word was, WAS GOD.

All things that were made were made by the Logos. Nothing that was made was made without HIM.

The Logos was PERSONAL. All things were made by HIM.

Is a voice a him? Is a thought a him? Is a plan a him?

Thought, plan, or voice is not a "him". So we look elsewhere in scripture to understand the Logos.



We read earlier the Logos that was with God created all things. Paul tells us here God made all things by HIS SON.

Can we safely say the Logos then is the same as the Son? Unless we want to believe Paul contradicted John I think we can. Does Paul identify this Son? Apparently so.



The Son he refers to is not ANOTHER PERSON OF GOD.

The Son he refers to is THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF.......HIS.....PERSON.

This EXPRESS IMAGE was the Logos. Remember the Logos was WITH GOD.

God was omnipresent Spirit that FILLED THE HEAVENS AND EARTH. As such he had no image. If he were to interact PERSONALLY with creation he needed one.

Thus his first creation would be an image or form of HIMSELF. Not someone else. Paul said this EXPRESS IMAGE was HIS PERSON.

In the beginning means the beginning of creation. When God was ready to make his creation he FORMED A PERSONAL IMAGE OF HIMSELF.

Isaiah 43:10



So God before he did any creating FORMED this "person" to be HIS PERSON.

So the express image of his person (not another person) was with God the OMNIPRESENT SPIRIT in the beginning. How do we know this image was before ALL THINGS?

Because he made all things BY the IMAGE.

God had a certain image in mind when he brought it forth at the beginning. It would look like his Son Jesus Christ. Paul said God created the worlds by his Son. He then tells us the Son is his express image.

So again the Son is his own image. Not another person but HIS....PERSON. An image or spiritual body for himself to be able to work through and interact with his creation.

This is what Paul had in mind when he wrote:

Eph. 3:9



So far we have seen that the Logos was with God but also was God. With God as his visible image. Was God because he himself was in the image. The first thing God ever made was an image of HIMSELF.

That image looked like Jesus Christ whom he would become when he took on flesh.

Part 1

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Part 2

Now we will see Paul teaching the same thing to the Colossians.

Col. 1:13-17


So remember. John said all things were made by the Logos. Then Paul said all things were made by Gods Son which he defines as the EXPRESS IMAGE of.......HIS PERSON.

Now to the Colossians Paul teaches exactly the same thing. All things were made by his Son verse 13, whom he defines as the IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE in verse 14.

Can we now begin to see if the Logos made all things John 1:3 and God made all things through his personal image Heb. 1:3 and created all things through Jesus Christ Eph. 3:9 that the Logos was everything we see here when Paul speaks of creation?

Yet he calls the Son whom he has attributed the work of creation......the FIRSTBORN of all creation. God brought forth an image or form from himself......the logos was God. Or better yet God (himself) was the logos.

The firstborn of all creation was when God formed an image of HIMSELF.

HIM FROM HIM.

As the omnipresent Spirit God formed.....HIMSELF.

The logos, form, image was WITH GOD the omnipresent Spirit. Yet the form was God himself putting his eternal life into it and calling it his Son in retrospect.

This is what was made flesh and dwelled among us.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Part 3

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Who said this? Was it not Jesus Christ? Is he not saying he is the beginning of the creation of God?

He is saying the same thing about himself that we saw in Hebrews 1:3, Ephesians 3:9, and Colossians 1:13-17.

Do we have the right to overthrow what Jesus and the Apostles taught? Many think they do. Jesus confirmed what Paul taught the Churches fully agreeing with it.

Now does this mean Jesus is not the ETERNAL FATHER?. No, it does not. What it means is that modern Oneness has not taken ALL THE COUNSEL OF GOD in a serious way.

Instead of accepting the words of Jesus and the Apostles and digging deeper to understand how that the concept of Jesus being Creator and at the same time created can be true they simply ignore or try to make Jesus words say something else.

You made an unqualified jump from what the Scriptures say to your own interjected claim about the Logos being formed. You just put that in there when it says nothing of the sort (in fact it says the opposite). Every time you "teach" this, you do the same thing. It's called eisegesis, you just stick in there what you want it to mean as if hoping nobody will notice the subtle shift.

I see you talking about a "Son" who was created before Creation and "Him from Him", very much like the Eternal Son who was "of the substance of the Father, true God of true God". I mean, seriously, you are sounding like a trinitarian who just refrains from calling this Logos of yours "God the Son, begotten in eternity past, consubstantial with the Father, homoousion with the Father, the Second Person but still One God". Kind of like trinitarians who won't admit they are actually tritheists.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Now does this mean Jesus is not the ETERNAL FATHER?. No, it does not. What it means is that modern Oneness has not taken ALL THE COUNSEL OF GOD in a serious way.

Instead of accepting the words of Jesus and the Apostles and digging deeper to understand how that the concept of Jesus being Creator and at the same time created can be true they simply ignore or try to make Jesus words say something else.

Jesus was created AS A MAN, but you have a created GOD!!!!! And since the Father is most assuredly NOT created, you have TWO GODS, one the uncreated Father, the other God Jr. created back in eternity. Your say Jesus is the Father but in your scheme He is a reduced-pixel photoshop of the Real God.

Wow.

[Esaias]

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isaiah:43:10

There is no honest way to take this verse and say "See? It says the Logos was formed back in Eternity!"

Jehovah (our Father, the Mighty God of Israel) is speaking and says before Him no God was formed, neither shall there be any after Him. God is NOT FORMED. This is God the Father speaking (which is why it is called THE WORD, because HE IS GOD). Thus, this is CHRIST speaking through the prophet, because Christ IS THE WORD. And the Word IS GOD. God's Word is not a begotten God.

It is a violent wresting of the Scripture to say this verse proves the Logos was formed. A formed God? MADNESS. You destroy the Monarchy of God, you are introducing a second God.