DKB's Impassioned Plea For Iranian Branhamite?

[DAII]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

That doesn't answer the question and you know it.

I view Branhamism as a cult, too, but they are still a fringe element of Apostolics, IMO. Therefore if a pastor has *connections* with them, he could also LIKELY be Apostolic, whether he himself is a Branhamite or not.

DKB did NOT claim that this pastor was UPCI. That doesn't mean he's not telling the truth by saying it's someone they've been in contact with.

I just don't understand the point of the thread, DA. This man could lose his life for sharing the Gospel (as best he knows it - if he's part of a cult and is sharing false doctrine, I'm not aware of it, and it doesn't make me any less concerned for him). When I first read the article, it said something about him being part of a "'Full Gospel" group, so I assumed he was trinitarian. The best thing we can do is pray for him and his family, and maybe we can solve the mystery of what he believes and teaches at a later date, hopefully after his sentence is NOT carried out.

No, their teaching is not apostolic in any sense of the word ... and you can keep that hooey on your side of the Apostolica fence if you're comfortable smelling it .... the apostles wouldn't believe nor teach many of William Branham's teachings or claims ... A FALSE PROPHET IS A FALSE PROPHET IS A FALSE PROPHET.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by DAII

No, they're not apostolic in any sense of the word ... and you can keep that hooey on your side of the Apostolica fence if your comfortable smelling it .... the apostles wouldn't believe nor teach many of William Branham's teachings or claims.

And you think I feel any differently about their beliefs?

Are you upset because DKB referenced the pastor as an Apostolic contact, and you think he's trying to garner a connection that doesn't really exist? Maybe to get some press?

Or are you irritated that we might waste time praying for a possible cult member/leader?

Both? Neither?

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Sam

The term Apostolic covers a pretty broad spectrum of believers, doesn't it?

If you and I can be considered Apostolic, and we are diverse from one another in some ways, we need to cut some slack for others who are not exactly like us.

Humble question: then what is the common tie that qualifies one as apostolic?

I know some branhamites, and I have a hard time not considering it crazy stuff.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

And you think I feel any differently about their beliefs?

Are you upset because DKB referenced the pastor as an Apostolic contact, and you think he's trying to garner a connection that doesn't really exist? Maybe to get some press?

Or are you irritated that we might waste time praying for a possible cult member/leader?

Both? Neither?

I think it's more of the political rhetoric we've come to get used too ... if we read the bulletin's language with a cursory glance it would seem the UPCI is staying low but is somehow wheeling and dealing and maneuvering to help manufacture unprecedented REVIVAL ... in IRAN.

but we have not directly involved the UPCI name because of concern about harming other evangelistic efforts in the region.

After you peel the layers ... you're left with just what?

And yes ... I think Youcef is a Christian ... but what's this incessant need to own him ?

Press for Jesus name baptism? But Jeff Garner and Rex Jones and TD Jakes baptize in Jesus name too ... and so do some AOG churches and so did the Celtic Catholic church.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Thinker

Humble question: then what is the common tie that qualifies one as apostolic?

I know some branhamites, and I have a hard time not considering it crazy stuff.

Crazy stuff ... ain't apostolic ...

That's a start.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by DAII

I think it's more of the political rhetoric we've come to get used too ... if we read the bulletin's language with a cursory glance it would seem the UPCI is staying low but is somehow wheeling and dealing and maneuvering to help manufacture REVIVAL ... in IRAN.

And yes ... I think Youcef is a Christian ... but what's this incessant need to own him?

Got it. I don't know, but I understand the annoyance if that's really happening. Following that implication...well, I'm not superstitious, but it just seems like bad karma to state the obvious.

I posted a thread earlier with an article, and it didn't even occur to me that he might be Apostolic. For one thing, it seems that trinitarians have laid a better foundation in missions and have way more inroads than we do, so I usually think missionaries in the news are trinitarian unless it's specified otherwise.

Time will tell if this is true or not, I guess. (That he's an "Apostolic contact.")

Btw, I did read in one article that he would be the first Christian executed in Iran in more than 20 years. I don't know if that's true, but if it is, it's a nice statistic to lean on. Let's hope they don't make an example out of this young pastor.

[timlan2057]

I must confess I am not familiar with this story. My history studies leave me little time for current events, and I'm not really interested anyway, in reading the plethora of websites and poring over the many news channels.

I do see some parallels, assuming Daniel has the story straight.

"The Siberian Seven?" "The Russian Seven?" --or whatever they were called, supposedly being "persecuted" in the old Soviet Union? And hey, they probably were.

Bottom line: Nathaniel Urshan talked a blue streak about them for over a year in every district conference, general conference etc. The Herald and the Forward were saturated with "progress reports."

They were "ours!" They were "our people!"

You'd think it would have been the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and Campmeeting Jubilee when the Soviet government finally let those people emigrate.

Now this is just my opinion here. Any heat should be directed toward me; that's okay, I can take it.

But those Herald pictures at the airport of Urshan with his arms around the patriarch of the seven? Daniel's imagery brought that to mind--"incessant ownership." It was like Urshan didn't want anyone else--as far as religious leaders from other movements--in publicity photos.

But I noticed as a younger minister how quickly it all became hushed once they finally got those people to the US. All we heard at the next General Conference--very soon after they arrived--was "they're attending one of our churches and doing fine."

Well, bottom line, those people were trinitarians and NEVER attended a UPC church. They immediately went to the Assemblies of God or whomever. If they had REALLY been attending a UPC church, they and their pastor would have been paraded like circus elephants on every conference and campmeeting platform in the country.

A lot of high-pressure offerings were taken to FREE THE SIBERIAN SEVEN!

It all ended up being a big publicity stunt.

I wonder ... would Urshan have pushed that like he had, if he had realized there was NOT any UPC street cred to be earned from the "Russian Apostolics" who were not REALLY apostolic--at least not in Urshan's sense?

Of course, looking back at the REAL historical writings, I think Andrew Urshan was not "apostolic" in the sense Urshan, Hall and others tried to portray him.

But I digress. I see parallels with the "Russian Pentecostals" from the 80s and this situation.

Funny how Bernard--and to be fair, not just Bernard--draws these doctrinal and fellowship lines in the sand domestically, but is so quick to claim someone on the foreign field obviously not Grade-A UPC--because he thinks there might be some good pub coming from it.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by timlan2057

I must confess I am not familiar with this story. My history studies leave me little time for current events, and I'm not really interested anyway, in reading the plethora of websites and poring over the many news channels.

I do see some parallels, assuming Daniel has the story straight.

"The Siberian Seven?" "The Russian Seven?" --or whatever they were called, supposedly being "persecuted" in the old Soviet Union? And hey, they probably were.

Bottom line: Nathaniel Urshan talked a blue streak about them for over a year in every district conference, general conference etc. The Herald and the Forward were saturated with "progress reports."

They were "ours!" They were "our people!"

You'd think it would have been the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and Campmeeting Jubilee when the Soviet government finally let those people emigrate.

Now this is just my opinion here. Any heat should be directed toward me; that's okay, I can take it.

But those Herald pictures at the airport of Urshan with his arms around the patriarch of the seven? Daniel's imagery brought that to mind--"incessant ownership." It was like Urshan didn't want anyone else--as far as religious leaders from other movements--in publicity photos.

But I noticed as a younger minister how quickly it all became hushed once they finally got those people to the US. All we heard at the next General Conference--very soon after they arrived--was "they're attending one of our churches and doing fine."

Well, bottom line, those people were trinitarians and NEVER attended a UPC church. They immediately went to the Assemblies of God or whomever. If they had REALLY been attending a UPC church, they and their pastor would have been paraded like circus elephants on every conference and campmeeting platform in the country.

A lot of high-pressure offerings were taken to FREE THE SIBERIAN SEVEN!

It all ended up being a big publicity stunt.

I wonder ... would Urshan have pushed that like he had, if he had realized there was NOT any UPC street cred to be earned from the "Russian Apostolics" who were not REALLY apostolic--at least not in Urshan's sense?

Of course, looking back at the REAL historical writings, I think Andrew Urshan was not "apostolic" in the sense Urshan, Hall and others tried to portray him.

But I digress. I see parallels with the "Russian Pentecostals" from the 80s and this situation.

Funny how Bernard--and to be fair, not just Bernard--draws these doctrinal and fellowship lines in the sand domestically, but is so quick to claim someone on the foreign field obviously not Grade-A UPC--because he thinks there might be some good pub coming from it.

Great post ... you've nailed it ... I thought of the Siberian Seven as I went to be last night and their parallel.

I have contacted various Branhamite people in the sites provided and await their take on the matter.

[Cindy]

Why don't we pray for this pastor and Bro. Bernard.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Cindy

Why don't we pray for this pastor and Bro. Bernard.

Thanks ... we are.