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  #41  
Old 12-24-2018, 01:39 AM
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Scott Pitta Scott Pitta is offline
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

I would like to see more quotes from the Hebrew Matthew from the early church fathers. Surely there must be more than just one. For analysis purposes, how many Hebrew quotes are there from Matthew chapter 28 ? Are there any ?

How many early church father quotes from Matthew chapter 28 differ from the text we now have ? Are there any patterns or indicators they may have originated from a Hebrew text of Matthew ??
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  #42  
Old 12-24-2018, 11:08 AM
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

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Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
David Brown writes, “It is believed by a formidable number of critics that this Gospel was originally written in what is loosely called Hebrew, but more correctly Aramaic, or Syro-Chaldaic, the native tongue of the country at the time of our Lord”
And? See, you're just playing games here, not actually engaging in real discussion.
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  #43  
Old 12-24-2018, 12:34 PM
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

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Originally Posted by Scott Pitta View Post
I would like to see more quotes from the Hebrew Matthew from the early church fathers.
I'd like to see one.
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  #44  
Old 12-24-2018, 08:06 PM
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

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I'd like to see one.
very few of the post-apostolic fathers knew Hebrew, so they would hardly quote something in Hebrew.
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Old 12-24-2018, 09:52 PM
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

If they could refer to one variant reading from a Hebrew Matthew, they could refer or quote others.

If they could not read Hebrew at all, how would they know of the variant reading ?? How could they accurately quote from a manuscript they could not even read ??

Finding other variant readings from the same pericope would tell us more about the content of the Hebrew Matthew and how other phrases and words were translated.
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  #46  
Old 12-25-2018, 05:15 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

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Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
Actually the Eusebian citation brings Apostolic bible harmony, for that text is in harmony with Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48 and others.
Not if you have an Apostolic belief that the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit is Jesus.

Do you take issue with this simple harmony?
That is the harmony of the text that is in all the Greek, Latin and Syriac mss., plus various versions.

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  #47  
Old 12-25-2018, 05:17 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

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Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Not an original.
From a 14th-century anti-Christian tract.
And you ignore dozens of blunders in the edition. You simply cherry-pick one you like, because you do not understand apostolic Bible harmony.
Just a reminder about the cherry-picking from the 14th century Shem-Tob Matthew.

Take one corruption, trumpet it, and ignore dozens of other corruptions that would cause you to rewrite the Gospel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta View Post
If they could refer to one variant reading from a Hebrew Matthew, they could refer or quote others. ... Finding other variant readings from the same pericope would tell us more about the content of the Hebrew Matthew and how other phrases and words were translated.
The corruption of the Shem Tob was documented years back, when there was a lot of Hebrew Matthew brouhaha (the Munster and DuTillet editions were much closer to the pure Bible Matthew.) The Shem Tob is textually a total disaster, so the Matthew 28:19 pushers simply ignore the question.

In fact there is a second variant in ShemTob that has become popular, for totally different reasons, but again, the pushers, a different group, ignore the dozens of abject corruptions.

==================

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
David Brown writes, “It is believed by a formidable number of critics that this Gospel was originally written in what is loosely called Hebrew, but more correctly Aramaic, or Syro-Chaldaic, the native tongue of the country at the time of our Lord”
btw, another reminder that when Jerome referred to a Hebrew Matthew, it was simply a different Gospel than our canonical Gospel. Jerome described some of the stories in the Hebrew edition, which he saw in Caesarea (perhaps brought down from Syria.) And no, he did not say anything about Matthew 28:19.

The above from David Brown was written in the 1800s, and he considered the argument for a Hebrew Matthew original as of an "unsatisfactory character" and he has a special section explaining why the position was wrong.

Of course, an Aramaic Matthew would be quite different than a Hebrew Matthew, which is what Jerome saw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
the internal evidence from the Gospel itself shows that it was originally a Hebrew work.
The internal translations, consistent in all Greek text-lines, is a solid evidence that the original was not in a semitic language, since the descriptions would not be in the original, and would not be added in by a translator.

You are welcome to present the specifics of this proposed "internal evidence".

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
Eusebius: “Go, and make disciples of all the nations in My Name”. (18 times exact citations), (100+ times allusions)
"exact citations" is a deception, form you, not a claim of Eusebius. In about 18 of 23 he did use a shorthand usage, in about five he used the full expression. Many people in Apostolic circles do the same thing. The 100+ times allusions looks like simply a fabrication of somebody.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
Annarikhus: “Go ye forth into all the world, and teach ye all the nations in My Name in every place.”
Aphraates: “Go forth [and] make disciples of all the peoples, and they shall believe in me”
Ephrem: “Go out into the whole world and proclaim my gospel to the whole of creation and baptize all the Gentiles.”
Thaddaeus: “And He sent us in His name to proclaim repentance and remission of sins to all the nations.”
None of these offer an alternate baptizing phrase, like you claim should be the text. Clearly, there are many loose quotations over time, so picking out a few loose references means little.

===================

Who is Thaddaeus? You are referring to a work called the Acts of Thaddaeus, thought to be written pretty late. (Although I am open to arguments that it reflects an earlier text.)

Quote:
"And He sent us in His name to proclaim repentance and remission of sins to all the nations, that those who were baptized, having had the kingdom of the heavens preached to them, would rise up incorruptible at the end of this age; and He gave us power to expel demons, and heal every disease and every malady, and raise the dead."
https://books.google.com/books?id=6zgMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA559
Your "scholarship" is such a mess that you omit the following from the same work:

Quote:
And after the passion, and the resurrection, and the ascension, Thaddæus went to Abgarus; and having found him in health, he gave him an account of the incarnation of Christ, and baptized him, with all his house. And having instructed great multitudes, both of Hebrews and Greeks, Syrians and Armenians, he baptized them in the name of the Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit, having anointed them with the holy perfume; and he communicated to them of the undefiled mysteries of the sacred body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and delivered to them to keep and observe the law of Moses, and to give close heed to the things that had been said by the apostles in Jerusalem. For year by year they came together to the passover, and again he imparted to them the Holy Spirit.
Thank you for showing us that you are not engaged in sincere and honest study or scholarship.

The bottom line is simple.
These corruption pushers do not have a pure Bible.

Last edited by Steven Avery; 12-25-2018 at 06:12 PM.
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  #48  
Old 12-25-2018, 07:41 PM
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
"exact citations" is a deception, form you, not a claim of Eusebius. In about 18 of 23 he did use a shorthand usage, in about five he used the full expression. Many people in Apostolic circles do the same thing. The 100+ times allusions looks like simply a fabrication of somebody
This answer of yours tells me that you have never actually read Eusebius. Anyone who has fully read all of his works will disagree with you.
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  #49  
Old 12-25-2018, 07:44 PM
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

Eusebius citations

Demonstratio Evangelica (The Proof of the Gospel) Book 3
1. 3:6 With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all the nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you." And He joined the effect to His Word;

2. 3:7 Whereas He, who conceived nothing human or mortal, see how truly He speaks with the voice of God, saying in these very words to those disciples of His, the poorest of the poor: "Go forth, and make disciples of all the nations." "But how," the disciples might reasonably have answered the Master,...But while the disciples of Jesus were most likely either saying thus, or thinking thus, the Master solved their difficulties, by the addition of one phrase, saying they should triumph "In MY NAME."

3. 3:7 For He did not bid them simply and indefinitely make disciples of all nations, but with the necessary addition of "In My Name." And the power of His Name being so great, that the apostle says: "God has given him a name which is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth,"

4. 3:7 He shewed the virtue of the power in His Name concealed from the crowd when He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name." He also most accurately forecasts the future when He says: "For this gospel must first be preached to all the world, for a witness to all nations."
These words were said in a corner of the earth then, and only those present heard it. How, I ask, did they credit them, unless from other divine works that He had done they had experienced the truth in His words? Not one of them disobeyed His command: but in obedience to His Will according to their orders they began to make disciples of every race of men, going from their own country to all races, and in a short time it was possible to see His words realized.

5. 3:7 I am irresistibly forced to retrace my steps, and search for their cause, and to confess that they could only have succeeded in their daring venture, by a power more divine, and more strong than man's, and by the co-operation of Him Who said to them: "Make disciples of all the nations in My Name."…You yourself will recognize what power their word has had, for the Book of the Acts agrees with their having these powers, and gives consistent evidence, where these men are reported by their power of working miracles by the Name of Jesus to have astonished the spectators present.

Demonstratio Evangelica (The Proof of the Gospel) Book 9
6. 9:11 And He says to them, "The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bearing the fruits of it." And He bids His own disciples after their rejection, "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in My Name.''

Theophania Book 4
7. 4:16 Our Saviour said to them therefore, after His resurrection, "Go ye and make Disciples of all nations in My Name,"

Theophania Book 5
8. 5:17 But, if one so dared; still he brought not the matter to effect. He (the Saviour) said in one word and enouncement to His Disciples, "Go and make disciples of all nations in My Name, and teach ye them every thing that I have commanded you."

9. 5:46 He again put forth the word of God in the precept, which He gave to these His powerless Disciples, (viz.) "Go ye and make Disciples of all nations!" It is likely too, His Disciples would thus address their Lord, by way of answer: How can we do this ?…And, What power have we upon which to trust, that we shall succeed in this enterprise? These things therefore, the Disciples of our Saviour would either have thought, or said. But He who was their Lord solved, by one additional word, the aggregate of the things of which they doubted, (and) pledged them by saying, “Ye shall conquer in My Name.”

10. 5:46 For it was not that He commanded them, simply and indiscriminately, to go and make Disciples of all nations; but with this excellent addition which He delivered, (viz): "In My Name." Since it was by the power of His Name that all this came to pass; as the Apostle has said, "God has given Him a name, which is superior to every name: that, at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow which is in heaven, and which is in earth, and which is beneath the earth."

11. 5:49 I am again compelled to recur to the question of (its) cause, and to confess, that they (the Disciples) could not otherwise have undertaken this enterprise, than by a Divine power which exceeds that of man, and by the assistance of Him who said to them, "Go, and make Disciples of all nations in My Name."

Church History Book 3
12. 5:2 But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in My Name.”

The Oration of Eusebius in Praise of Emperor Constantine Ch. 16
13. 16:8 Surely none save our only Saviour has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke the word to his followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, “Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name.” He it was who gave the distinct assurance, that his gospel must be preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and immediately verified his word: for within a little time the world itself was filled with his doctrine.

Commentary on the Psalms (from Bernard H. Cuneo; The Lord's Command to Baptize, An Historico-critical investigation with special reference to the works of Eusebius of Caesarea).
14. Psalms 65:5-6 "Hence we should rejoice in him, who by his power endureth forever. We should understand these words of that saying of Christ: 'All power is given to me in heaven and on earth. Going make disciples of all the nations in My Name.'"

15. Psalms 67:34 "That Christ's voice was endowed with power is evident from his, deeds; for when he said to his disciples: 'Come, follow me, and I shall make you fishers of men," he actually fulfilled this promise by his power; and again when he commanded them saying: 'Going make disciples of all the nations in My Name,' he manifested his power in very deed."

16. Psalms 76:20 "From the preceding verse we learn that the earth shook and trembled. This was realized when Christ entered Jerusalem, and the entire city was in consternation; also when the nations of the world trembled upon hearing the words of the Gospel from the lips of the Apostles. How should we understand the prophet when he says that Christ's way is in the sea, and his paths in many waters, and his footsteps will not be known? This passage receives light from his promise to his disciples: 'Going make disciples of all nations in My Name,' and, 'Behold I am with you all days even to the end of the world.' For throughout the entire world, invisibly present to his disciples, he traveled on the sea of life, and in the many waters of the nations. This he accomplished by his invisible and hidden power."

Commentary on Isaiah- (from Bernard H. Cuneo, The Lord's Command to Baptize, An Historico-critical investigation with special reference to the works of Eusebius of Caesarea).
17. Isaiah 18:2 "This command seems to be given to the disciples of our Savior. Since they are messengers of good tidings, they are called messengers, and light ones, to distinguish them from the apostles of the Jews. Wherefore the prophet addresses these messengers of good tidings thus: You disciples of Christ, go as the Savior himself has commanded you; 'Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel,' and 'Going make disciples of all the nations in My Name.'"

18. Isaiah 34:16 "For he who said to them, 'make disciples of all the nations in My Name,' also forbad them to establish churches in one and the same place."
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  #50  
Old 12-25-2018, 08:36 PM
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Scott Pitta Scott Pitta is offline
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

"In my name" is not a baptismal phrase used in any of the great commission accounts.

"In the name" is used by Matthew.

"In my name" they shall cast out demons. (Mark 16)

Water baptism is not mentioned by Luke.

So when the quote "in my name" is mentioned, what passage is being referred to ??

Unless Matthew is mentioned by name, how do we know "in my name" is a specific quote from Matthew ???

Last edited by Scott Pitta; 12-25-2018 at 08:48 PM.
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