Absent from the body?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Hmm. So what did you mean when you said we are only with the Lord after resurrection occurs?

I did not explain it correctly. That's why I added what I did. May have to adjust things a little more. I was typing on the fly as I went through the passages. I should have done it all and then adjusted later. I can do that here, though.

Not trying to harp on this, just wanting to make sure I know what you are saying here.

Also, you had mentioned the Spirit is a guarantee of an eternal existence. This implies that without the Spirit we will have no eternal existence. Are you meaning only that we would have no eternal existence in a physical (resurrected, not "natural" or mortal) body? OR that we would have no eternal existence at all, as persons, apart from the resurrection unto life?

We could exist eternally without a body, but the bible simply says that shall not be the case. The baptism of the Holy Ghost is an earnest of our inheritance. That means everything we have now is only PART of what we shall have forevermore in eternity future. It just so happens that the eternity future is destined for us to have a body. I was not implying annihilation when I said that, though. Just that the presence of the Spirit in us now means what we have now is only part of what we have in the future.

I think that answers your question. Let me know otherwise.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Here is that other post:

Originally Posted by mfblume

I did not explain it correctly. That's why I added what I did. May have to adjust things a little more. I was typing on the fly as I went through the passages. I should have done it all and then adjusted later. I can do that here, though.



We could exist eternally without a body, but the bible simply says that shall not be the case. The baptism of the Holy Ghost is an earnest of our inheritance. That means everything we have now is only PART of what we shall have forevermore in eternity future. It just so happens that the eternity future is destined for us to have a body. I was not implying annihilation when I said that, though. Just that the presence of the Spirit in us now means what we have now is only part of what we have in the future.

I think that answers your question. Let me know otherwise.

Okay, I believe I understand what you are saying now. I would like to address the whole subject a bit later (I've been busy researching something else for some JWs I have a meeting with later this week).

BTW, if you have any successful experiences with Jehovahs Witnesses let me know on the JW thread.

[Carl]

Great to see this discussion pick up! I'll not hijack it! But it would be nice to see it start with the question of, what is a soul? It looks like Esaias has already touched on that. My understanding of the definition of a soul is "a living, breathing creature". Not a separate entity within the body. Also what is a spirit? Doesn't the word simply mean breath or air, or some type of life giving energy? I would think oneness people could get beyond the trinity of man concept to understand what we are.

[KeptByTheWord]

Interesting reading. Thanks Brothers for discussing your ideas in a kind way. I am undecided on the issue as well, but in the light of the bigger picture... I know that whatever the Lord has prepared for us after death will be better than anything we can imagine here on earth, and that thought at least, gives me great hope

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mfblume

We both know two specific hijackers. So don't be surprised they hijack this thread as well.

yes we do, don't we, Mike?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Interesting reading. Thanks Brothers for discussing your ideas in a kind way. I am undecided on the issue as well, but in the light of the bigger picture... I know that whatever the Lord has prepared for us after death will be better than anything we can imagine here on earth, and that thought at least, gives me great hope

This may shed some light on the afterlife....

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion(invisible), and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem(invisible), and to an innumerable company of angels,(invisible)

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn(visible/invisible dead), which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all(invisible), and to the spirits of just men made perfect(the invisible, dead in Christ),

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant(invisible), and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



We now have a blending of the visible and invisible.

When you die, you join the invisible group.

[mfblume]

Hijacking has begun.

[Esaias]

In reviewing the statements made previously, and the passages in question, it seems that Paul is saying we are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord, that we will be present with the Lord in the resurrection, that we are looking forward to being 'clothed' with our resurrection bodies.

So, it seems Paul is saying that we are willing to be absent from THIS body of mortality, and present with the Lord (ie resurrected). (I am for the sake of the discussion willing to assume - at the moment - that the phrase 'absent from the body' means to be absent from our mortal bodies inherited from Adam, rather than 'body' being a metaphor for something else as in 'the body of Christ'.)

So then it seems that Paul is NOT teaching any interim state between physical death and physical resurrection, during which we are 'present with the Lord', or during which we are enjoying the 'Beatific Vision', etc.

This ties in with the rest of the Bible's teachings (as I described in the first post).

I believe that those who think that upon physical death, a Christian 'goes to heaven', are misunderstanding what the Bible teaches about the soul, as well as what the Bible teaches about the nature of immortality.

Many think they are a person who 'has a soul', as if the soul is a non physical entity or substance 'inside' their physical body. If that were the case, then there is nothing to say every person hasn't existed since the creation, and only 'came into this world' by God sending their soul into a body. (Arnold Murray, the Mormons, and some other groups teach this, as did the ancient Greeks and Hindus and Druids, etc). In fact, it is only one short step from such a thought to the idea of transmigration (reincarnation).

The Bible however teaches that man IS a soul. Genesis says 'and man became a living soul'. Paul repeats this in the NT. Adam was fashioned from the dust of the earth, and God breathed into him the 'breath' (spirit, ruach, pneuma) of life, and the man became a living soul. That is, the man became a living, breathing, animated person. A soul did not 'descend into his body', and neither did a soul 'ascend out of his body' when he died.

Here is what happens at death -

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The physical body returns to the earth, and the spirit (breath of life, the animating factor) returns to God. This is what happens to ALL people who die, the spirit that was in them, their human spirit, the 'breath of life' that animates their body and makes them 'alive' as opposed to being a slab of longshank, returns to God who gave it in the first place.

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Beasts and humans 'all have one breath'. That word 'breath' is 'ruach' (pneuma in the Greek) and means 'spirit', the breath of life, the animating factor. Beasts and humans are 'alive', they aspirate, they breathe, they are animated by an immaterial energy that makes them LIVING. The difference however is in that final verse - the spirit of the beast returns to the earth, and the spirit of man returns to God. God said 'let the EARTH bring forth beasts...' but in regard to man he said 'let us make man in our image'. In other words, the beasts come from the earth, and their spirit or breath returns to the earth. Man however comes from God, and his spirit returns to God.

Now, since man IS a living soul, by the union of 'breath' or spirit and 'dust' or flesh, and since death is the separation of breath from dust/spirit from flesh, it follows that the soul does not 'live on' in a distinct, conscious existence after death.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The dead know not any thing, that is, they have no conscious awareness of anything. Death results in 'unconsciousness'. The dead are not aware of anything, they do not think or perceive. Their passions are perished, that is, they do not experience emotion or feeling. They do not participate in anything taking place, they do not interact with the living, they are not involved in anything going on. Their reward has perished with them. A look at Ecclesiastes shows that a man's reward is to enjoy the fruits of his labours, and that takes place in this life, and the dead are 'departed' so their reward (in context) is gone and no more.

David understood this as well:

Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psa 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Psa 88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

The only way the dead would praise God would be if they 'arise' (resurrection), for in the state of being dead they do no such thing. Death is referred to as 'the dark' and 'the land of forgetfulness', thus reinforcing the Biblical understanding that death is a state of unconsciousness.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

The dead do not praise the Lord. They are known as those who 'go down into silence'. They go down into their graves (into the earth), and that is a place of 'silence' meaning no speaking, no sound, no praises, thus by extension no activity. Again, the grave (the condition of being dead) is a place of silence, darkness, lack of awareness.

The word 'sheol' was translated into Greek as 'Hades'. The word Hades is formed from the word eido meaning 'to see'. This is where we get the word 'idea' from. The word eido, when combined with the negative particle 'a' (along with the rough breathing or 'h') gives us hades, the land of NO SEEING, or literally 'no idea'. That is to say, no perception ie unconsciousness. That is an apt description of the condition of the dead - unconscious, unaware, inactive.

Now, all of paganism worldwide maintained the exact opposite view - that humans are merely 'souls trapped in physical bodies', that upon death the soul or conscious self-aware self-identity of the person 'escapes' and goes somewhere else. Either to roam the earth as a ghost or shade (shadow of it's former physical existence), or to 'the Otherworld'. That Otherworldly destination might be benevolent and beautiful, or terrible and painful, depending on the moral character of the individual and the decision of the gods. It might be a dreary, dark, place, like the Hades of the pagan Greeks, or it might be a happy bright place, like the Elysian Fields of the same Greeks. Whatever it was, whether among the Hindus, Buddhists, pagan Greeks, pagan Romans, the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Celtic Druids, or whoever it was, one thing was common - the soul or 'real person' left the physical body and went somewhere to continue its existence. The only difference was the physical body was left behind.

That is paganism. And that is nowhere found taught in the Bible. The Bible teaching, being a revelation from God, is the opposite to the pagan myths.

Notice, the serpent told Eve 'you shall not die'. Pagan religion has been from the beginning the religion of the serpent, and the fundamental teaching of all pagan religions is the fundamental lie of the serpent - YOU don't really die, you just move on into another form. Your body might die, but YOU LIVE ON regardless.

The Bible however teaches the exact opposite: people really do DIE. Their soul does not 'live on'. The Bible hope for mankind is RESURRECTION. Pagans generally looked forward to a future state of happiness in an disembodied state. God's people looked forward to a resurrection of the body, whereby the person (soul) COMES BACK TO LIFE to live eternally (throughout the ages).

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

In reviewing the statements made previously, and the passages in question, it seems that Paul is saying we are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord, that we will be present with the Lord in the resurrection, that we are looking forward to being 'clothed' with our resurrection bodies.

So, it seems Paul is saying that we are willing to be absent from THIS body of mortality, and present with the Lord (ie resurrected). (I am for the sake of the discussion willing to assume - at the moment - that the phrase 'absent from the body' means to be absent from our mortal bodies inherited from Adam, rather than 'body' being a metaphor for something else as in 'the body of Christ'.)

So then it seems that Paul is NOT teaching any interim state between physical death and physical resurrection, during which we are 'present with the Lord', or during which we are enjoying the 'Beatific Vision', etc.

This ties in with the rest of the Bible's teachings (as I described in the first post).

I believe that those who think that upon physical death, a Christian 'goes to heaven', are misunderstanding what the Bible teaches about the soul, as well as what the Bible teaches about the nature of immortality.

Many think they are a person who 'has a soul', as if the soul is a non physical entity or substance 'inside' their physical body. If that were the case, then there is nothing to say every person hasn't existed since the creation, and only 'came into this world' by God sending their soul into a body. (Arnold Murray, the Mormons, and some other groups teach this, as did the ancient Greeks and Hindus and Druids, etc). In fact, it is only one short step from such a thought to the idea of transmigration (reincarnation).

The Bible however teaches that man IS a soul. Genesis says 'and man became a living soul'. Paul repeats this in the NT. Adam was fashioned from the dust of the earth, and God breathed into him the 'breath' (spirit, ruach, pneuma) of life, and the man became a living soul. That is, the man became a living, breathing, animated person. A soul did not 'descend into his body', and neither did a soul 'ascend out of his body' when he died.

Here is what happens at death -

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The physical body returns to the earth, and the spirit (breath of life, the animating factor) returns to God. This is what happens to ALL people who die, the spirit that was in them, their human spirit, the 'breath of life' that animates their body and makes them 'alive' as opposed to being a slab of longshank, returns to God who gave it in the first place.

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Beasts and humans 'all have one breath'. That word 'breath' is 'ruach' (pneuma in the Greek) and means 'spirit', the breath of life, the animating factor. Beasts and humans are 'alive', they aspirate, they breathe, they are animated by an immaterial energy that makes them LIVING. The difference however is in that final verse - the spirit of the beast returns to the earth, and the spirit of man returns to God. God said 'let the EARTH bring forth beasts...' but in regard to man he said 'let us make man in our image'. In other words, the beasts come from the earth, and their spirit or breath returns to the earth. Man however comes from God, and his spirit returns to God.

Now, since man IS a living soul, by the union of 'breath' or spirit and 'dust' or flesh, and since death is the separation of breath from dust/spirit from flesh, it follows that the soul does not 'live on' in a distinct, conscious existence after death.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The dead know not any thing, that is, they have no conscious awareness of anything. Death results in 'unconsciousness'. The dead are not aware of anything, they do not think or perceive. Their passions are perished, that is, they do not experience emotion or feeling. They do not participate in anything taking place, they do not interact with the living, they are not involved in anything going on. Their reward has perished with them. A look at Ecclesiastes shows that a man's reward is to enjoy the fruits of his labours, and that takes place in this life, and the dead are 'departed' so their reward (in context) is gone and no more.

David understood this as well:

Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psa 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Psa 88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

The only way the dead would praise God would be if they 'arise' (resurrection), for in the state of being dead they do no such thing. Death is referred to as 'the dark' and 'the land of forgetfulness', thus reinforcing the Biblical understanding that death is a state of unconsciousness.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

The dead do not praise the Lord. They are known as those who 'go down into silence'. They go down into their graves (into the earth), and that is a place of 'silence' meaning no speaking, no sound, no praises, thus by extension no activity. Again, the grave (the condition of being dead) is a place of silence, darkness, lack of awareness.

The word 'sheol' was translated into Greek as 'Hades'. The word Hades is formed from the word eido meaning 'to see'. This is where we get the word 'idea' from. The word eido, when combined with the negative particle 'a' (along with the rough breathing or 'h') gives us hades, the land of NO SEEING, or literally 'no idea'. That is to say, no perception ie unconsciousness. That is an apt description of the condition of the dead - unconscious, unaware, inactive.

Now, all of paganism worldwide maintained the exact opposite view - that humans are merely 'souls trapped in physical bodies', that upon death the soul or conscious self-aware self-identity of the person 'escapes' and goes somewhere else. Either to roam the earth as a ghost or shade (shadow of it's former physical existence), or to 'the Otherworld'. That Otherworldly destination might be benevolent and beautiful, or terrible and painful, depending on the moral character of the individual and the decision of the gods. It might be a dreary, dark, place, like the Hades of the pagan Greeks, or it might be a happy bright place, like the Elysian Fields of the same Greeks. Whatever it was, whether among the Hindus, Buddhists, pagan Greeks, pagan Romans, the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Celtic Druids, or whoever it was, one thing was common - the soul or 'real person' left the physical body and went somewhere to continue its existence. The only difference was the physical body was left behind.

That is paganism. And that is nowhere found taught in the Bible. The Bible teaching, being a revelation from God, is the opposite to the pagan myths.

Notice, the serpent told Eve 'you shall not die'. Pagan religion has been from the beginning the religion of the serpent, and the fundamental teaching of all pagan religions is the fundamental lie of the serpent - YOU don't really die, you just move on into another form. Your body might die, but YOU LIVE ON regardless.

The Bible however teaches the exact opposite: people really do DIE. Their soul does not 'live on'. The Bible hope for mankind is RESURRECTION. Pagans generally looked forward to a future state of happiness in an disembodied state. God's people looked forward to a resurrection of the body, whereby the person (soul) COMES BACK TO LIFE to live eternally (throughout the ages).

An excellent teaching

[mfblume]

Almost forgot about this thread due to all the riff raff elsewhere. lol

Originally Posted by Esaias

In reviewing the statements made previously, and the passages in question, it seems that Paul is saying we are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord, that we will be present with the Lord in the resurrection, that we are looking forward to being 'clothed' with our resurrection bodies.

So, it seems Paul is saying that we are willing to be absent from THIS body of mortality, and present with the Lord (ie resurrected). (I am for the sake of the discussion willing to assume - at the moment - that the phrase 'absent from the body' means to be absent from our mortal bodies inherited from Adam, rather than 'body' being a metaphor for something else as in 'the body of Christ'.)

Amen, it is a mortal physical human body he is speaking about.

So then it seems that Paul is NOT teaching any interim state between physical death and physical resurrection, during which we are 'present with the Lord', or during which we are enjoying the 'Beatific Vision', etc.

Applying what I said in my former post to this response, I believe there is an interim period in mind.

2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

This implies we can be present in body and await acceptance of Him, pointing to judgment.

And it also implies absence from the Lord by presence in body, awaiting acceptance at judgment.

This means we can be absent from the body and present with the Lord while yet awaiting acceptance at the judgment.

What else would 5:9 mean?

This ties in with the rest of the Bible's teachings (as I described in the first post).

I believe that those who think that upon physical death, a Christian 'goes to heaven', are misunderstanding what the Bible teaches about the soul, as well as what the Bible teaches about the nature of immortality.

Many think they are a person who 'has a soul', as if the soul is a non physical entity or substance 'inside' their physical body.

Here's what I believe.

the SOUL is the real YOU. It is essentially you, because it's your mind and will. YOU are a soul, WITH a body and WITH a spirit.

The SPIRIT is the only complicated issue here. Jesus PERCEIVED IN HIS SPIRIT. Paul was stirred in his SPIRIT. He PURPOSED in his SPIRIT. PRESSED in spirit.

These things speak of something beyond intellect, but rather intuition and some kind of communication from God. That's why Jesus said what is born of God's Spirit is the human spirit. And Paul said we become one SPIRIT with the Lord like a man and woman become one flesh. I refer to the spirit the thing that makes us different from animals. It is the part of us created to be one with God. Jesus did not say the SOUL is born again or born of God's Spirit, but the SPIRIT. So it is like that part of us by whi9ch we seek after and commune with God.

If that were the case, then there is nothing to say every person hasn't existed since the creation, and only 'came into this world' by God sending their soul into a body. (Arnold Murray, the Mormons, and some other groups teach this, as did the ancient Greeks and Hindus and Druids, etc). In fact, it is only one short step from such a thought to the idea of transmigration (reincarnation).

No, Andrew Murray does not teach that, because I have many of his books. He teaches much what I have stated.

The Bible however teaches that man IS a soul.

Right.

Genesis says 'and man became a living soul'. Paul repeats this in the NT. Adam was fashioned from the dust of the earth, and God breathed into him the 'breath' (spirit, ruach, pneuma) of life, and the man became a living soul. That is, the man became a living, breathing, animated person. A soul did not 'descend into his body', and neither did a soul 'ascend out of his body' when he died.

Here is what happens at death -

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The physical body returns to the earth, and the spirit (breath of life, the animating factor) returns to God.

I disagree with what you said about the human spirit. It is far more than the breath of life. None of that corresponds to what examples I gave with Jesus and Paul and their SPIRITS.

This is what happens to ALL people who die, the spirit that was in them, their human spirit, the 'breath of life' that animates their body and makes them 'alive' as opposed to being a slab of longshank, returns to God who gave it in the first place.

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Beasts and humans 'all have one breath'. That word 'breath' is 'ruach' (pneuma in the Greek) and means 'spirit', the breath of life, the animating factor. Beasts and humans are 'alive', they aspirate, they breathe, they are animated by an immaterial energy that makes them LIVING. The difference however is in that final verse - the spirit of the beast returns to the earth, and the spirit of man returns to God. God said 'let the EARTH bring forth beasts...' but in regard to man he said 'let us make man in our image'. In other words, the beasts come from the earth, and their spirit or breath returns to the earth. Man however comes from God, and his spirit returns to God.

I agree with some of that, but there is more to the spirit of a man than just life. It also includes the thought of being the faculty of communication with God and sensing things from God, or even from the wicked spiritual realm. Demon spirits relate to people's human spirits just as God's Spirit does.

Now, since man IS a living soul, by the union of 'breath' or spirit and 'dust' or flesh, and since death is the separation of breath from dust/spirit from flesh, it follows that the soul does not 'live on' in a distinct, conscious existence after death.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The dead know not any thing, that is, they have no conscious awareness of anything.

I believe the context of this means the person does not know anything IN THIS WORLD. Not just anything anywhere.

Death results in 'unconsciousness'. The dead are not aware of anything, they do not think or perceive. Their passions are perished, that is, they do not experience emotion or feeling. They do not participate in anything taking place, they do not interact with the living, they are not involved in anything going on. Their reward has perished with them. A look at Ecclesiastes shows that a man's reward is to enjoy the fruits of his labours, and that takes place in this life, and the dead are 'departed' so their reward (in context) is gone and no more.

David understood this as well:

Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psa 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Psa 88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

The only way the dead would praise God would be if they 'arise' (resurrection), for in the state of being dead they do no such thing. Death is referred to as 'the dark' and 'the land of forgetfulness', thus reinforcing the Biblical understanding that death is a state of unconsciousness.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

The dead do not praise the Lord. They are known as those who 'go down into silence'. They go down into their graves (into the earth), and that is a place of 'silence' meaning no speaking, no sound, no praises, thus by extension no activity. Again, the grave (the condition of being dead) is a place of silence, darkness, lack of awareness.

A part of this that must be addressed is the idea of what happened to souls before the cross upon death. Nobody went to "heaven" before the cross. Sheol contained, as it were, two compartments. Abraham's bosom and Gehenna fire. Those in Abraham's bosom were removed from there at Christ's atonement, and entered Heaven.

The word 'sheol' was translated into Greek as 'Hades'. The word Hades is formed from the word eido meaning 'to see'. This is where we get the word 'idea' from. The word eido, when combined with the negative particle 'a' (along with the rough breathing or 'h') gives us hades, the land of NO SEEING, or literally 'no idea'. That is to say, no perception ie unconsciousness. That is an apt description of the condition of the dead - unconscious, unaware, inactive.

Now, all of paganism worldwide maintained the exact opposite view - that humans are merely 'souls trapped in physical bodies', that upon death the soul or conscious self-aware self-identity of the person 'escapes' and goes somewhere else. Either to roam the earth as a ghost or shade (shadow of it's former physical existence), or to 'the Otherworld'. That Otherworldly destination might be benevolent and beautiful, or terrible and painful, depending on the moral character of the individual and the decision of the gods. It might be a dreary, dark, place, like the Hades of the pagan Greeks, or it might be a happy bright place, like the Elysian Fields of the same Greeks. Whatever it was, whether among the Hindus, Buddhists, pagan Greeks, pagan Romans, the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Celtic Druids, or whoever it was, one thing was common - the soul or 'real person' left the physical body and went somewhere to continue its existence. The only difference was the physical body was left behind.

That is paganism. And that is nowhere found taught in the Bible. The Bible teaching, being a revelation from God, is the opposite to the pagan myths.

Wrong. Jesus spoke of the rich man and Lazarus. He did not promote paganism in that story.

Notice, the serpent told Eve 'you shall not die'. Pagan religion has been from the beginning the religion of the serpent, and the fundamental teaching of all pagan religions is the fundamental lie of the serpent - YOU don't really die, you just move on into another form. Your body might die, but YOU LIVE ON regardless.

The Lord told Adam IN DYING THOU SHALT DIE. Not simply thou shalt die like it is in English.

The Bible however teaches the exact opposite: people really do DIE. Their soul does not 'live on'. The Bible hope for mankind is RESURRECTION. Pagans generally looked forward to a future state of happiness in an disembodied state. God's people looked forward to a resurrection of the body, whereby the person (soul) COMES BACK TO LIFE to live eternally (throughout the ages).

Thanks for your thoughts. I will pose more examples of actual statements in 2 Cor 5.