Is the Bible Inerrant and Infallible?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by n david

Amazing how asking a person the simple question works, rather than assuming or guessing what they believe!

LOL

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Sister I can only relay what the scripture is actually saying, which is that she left for Elizabeth's immediately. As to what traveling arrangements she actually procured we are not privy to that information. Yet, the scripture said she left in haste and in haste she did leave. Did she speak with Joseph prior to her sojourn over to Elizabeth's home? No, because now we have to place Matthews account before Luke's account that Mary heard the angel, then left for Elizabeth's home. "Sorry Joseph, but an angel told me that I'm pregnant and my century old cousin is pregnant and I have to go be with her!" Why tell Joseph news he obviously needs to sleep on (no pun intended) then leave in haste? It seems that the writer in Luke wanted everyone to know the importance of her hasty departure.




No information is given in the contrary to have the reader think otherwise.
Angel announces two pregnancies, one of a virgin who hasn't consummated her marriage and the other an old woman, yet, the virgin jets out of town. Whether she needed to find a brass band, or Juan Valdez and his donkey to escort her out on town is something we can debate forever. But as far as the scripture points out, is that she hears angel, angel tell her she is pregnant as well as cousin, and she leaves in a skippy.



The point is, whether she told the man she was pregnant with the son of Zeus, or Vishnu, she was still absent for 3 months? Left town in a hurry, but came back in 3 months and tells the guy she is going to have the son of God?

This is where Joseph tells Mary, "wow I could really use a dream from God right about now!"



Unless his name is Johnny Neckbone, it sure did trouble him greatly, because he is espoused to a virgin who left town in a hurry to come back 3 months later pregnant.



How about one writer gives information the other writer leaves out?



Sister "FOUND" isn't the word we are looking for but the Greek for child in Matthew 1:18 ευρέθη εν γαστρί.

- Original: γαστήρ
- Transliteration: Gaster
- Phonetic: gas-tare'
- Definition:
1. the belly
2. the womb
3. the stomach
a. a glutton, gormandiser, a man who is as it were all stomach
- Origin: of uncertain derivation
- TDNT entry: None
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine G1064

No, I am looking for "found" to get an overview of where Joseph is in the picture. And I am saying that she is not visibly showing at 3 months, so he does not SEE anything. The "found" here is that he is made to understand that she is going to have a baby. It just isn't logical to say he noticed she is going to have a baby. He didn't see anything. There was nothing to see. She had to have talked with him about it.

"The birth of Jesus was on this wise" is telling me that the writer is sharing his side of the story. It doesn't have to mean it is a continuation.

Is Mark a continuation of Matthew? Is John a continuation of Luke? Or do all of these writers tell the story in their way?

It seems logical to me that he "thought on these things" after knowing she was pregnant. It also doesn't prove he found out about it 3 months later. She could have told him before she left. Are you saying that she told him nothing of this extremely powerful thing that happened to her - an angel proclaims her the mother of the promised Messiah? It just isn't logical she wouldn't tell the man she is supposed to marry about this profound event that will affect them both.

As you know, no one does anything with actual "haste" in the Middle East. Haste could mean two or three days. "Haste" can also mean to "give all diligence". That could involve her preparation - talking to Joseph and then leaving, preparing her travel plans, etc.

Clarke's Commentary says, "In those days - As soon as she could conveniently fit herself out for the journey."

And she could not have, as a young girl, immediately stood up and walked out of the house to go and see her cousin Elizabeth. It just isn't logical. How do you propose, logically, that Mary would jet set out of town? What arrangements would she have to make to leave? What does she tell her parents? Does she need permission? Does she need an escort? What does virgin, unmarried Mary have to arrange to leave her house and go to her cousin?

God does very phenomenal things. It's the people involved who do the ordinary things - like talking and planning. I don't see Mary jet setting out of town - sorry. It just doesn't make sense.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

No, I am looking for "found" to get an overview of where Joseph is in the picture. And I am saying that she is not visibly showing at 3 months, so he does not SEE anything. The "found" here is that he is made to understand that she is going to have a baby. It just isn't logical to say he noticed she is going to have a baby. He didn't see anything. There was nothing to see. She had to have talked with him about it.

Yet sister you wanted to focus on "found" you then wanted to point out that being "found" can mean several things in the Greek - to see, learn, discover, understand. Which is all fine and well, but the main word in the Greek phrase is "belly". Found with belly, that's actually literally what it is saying. Speculation only goes so far, and speculating about her robe, if she was pencil thin, my lands, I know sisters, midwives, and MeMaws who just look at a woman and know if see is pregnant. Anyway, we can only go with what the scripture is supplying us. She was told by an angel that she and her cousin were pregnant, and then she leaves, two days, three days five weeks is diligently leaving? Some scholars translate the Greek σπουδή as "hurry" Still, all we are told is that she leaves eagerly Luke 1:39 she stays 3 months and when Elizabeth is 9 months pregnant Mary leaves to go home Luke 1:56.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

"The birth of Jesus was on this wise" is telling me that the writer is sharing his side of the story. It doesn't have to mean it is a continuation.

Is Mark a continuation of Matthew? Is John a continuation of Luke? Or do all of these writers tell the story in their way?

Let me ask you a question? Does Matthew and Luke tell the same nativity story of Jesus verbatim?

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

It seems logical to me that he "thought on these things" after knowing she was pregnant.

Yes, when she returned from Elizabeth's. I mean we are taking 21st century United States couple waiting to go on their honeymoon. Just like she wouldn't of hot footed it to Elizabeth's with out some sort of guide, she couldn't just run over to Joe's place anytime she had the notion?

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

It also doesn't prove he found out about it 3 months later. She could have told him before she left. Are you saying that she told him nothing of this extremely powerful thing that happened to her - an angel proclaims her the mother of the promised Messiah? It just isn't logical she wouldn't tell the man she is supposed to marry about this profound event that will affect them both.

Did you say that she was 12 years old? So, you pretty much understand that in their culture? OK, so she wasn't texting him and having him drive by to pick her up in his Ford F250. Seriously, she was a virgin, at NO TIME was she allowed to be alone with him until all decorum of their culture played through. She was found with child Matthew 1:18 before they came together.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

As you know, no one does anything with actual "haste" in the Middle East.

Please explain how you know this.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Haste could mean two or three days. "Haste" can also mean to "give all diligence". That could involve her preparation - talking to Joseph and then leaving, preparing her travel plans, etc.

Mark 6:25 this is just one verse which uses the same Greek word for haste, and it means eagerly, hurried, hasty, involving her talking to Joseph prior to her leaving really entails much more than knocking on Joseph's door before she takes off.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

And she could not have, as a young girl, immediately stood up and walked out of the house to go and see her cousin Elizabeth. It just isn't logical. How do you propose, logically, that Mary would jet set out of town? What arrangements would she have to make to leave? What does she tell her parents? Does she need permission? Does she need an escort? What does virgin, unmarried Mary have to arrange to leave her house and go to her cousin?

With all due respect sister, you have a grocery to do list for Mary leaving town but seemingly not employing the same thought of a young girl having a meeting with her first century highly religious Judean husband.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

God does very phenomenal things. It's the people involved who do the ordinary things - like talking and planning. I don't see Mary jet setting out of town - sorry. It just doesn't make sense.

Sister, the girl just had an angelic being appear to her, and you want us to believe she sat down and planned a trip? She caught the first caravan out.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Wow, PO we sure know how to divert a thread.

[Evang.Benincasa]

It makes you wonder what other topics are hidden in threads which titles have absolutely nothing to do with what the posters are posting about? Like Effective Evangelist?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Wow, PO we sure know how to divert a thread.

Prax can move it, if he wants to.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Yet sister you wanted to focus on "found" you then wanted to point out that being "found" can mean several things in the Greek - to see, learn, discover, understand. Which is all fine and well, but the main word in the Greek phrase is "belly". Found with belly, that's actually literally what it is saying. Speculation only goes so far, and speculating about her robe, if she was pencil thin, my lands, I know sisters, midwives, and MeMaws who just look at a woman and know if see is pregnant. Anyway, we can only go with what the scripture is supplying us. She was told by an angel that she and her cousin were pregnant, and then she leaves, two days, three days five weeks is diligently leaving? Some scholars translate the Greek σπουδή as "hurry" Still, all we are told is that she leaves eagerly Luke 1:39 she stays 3 months and when Elizabeth is 9 months pregnant Mary leaves to go home Luke 1:56.

It also means womb, and you can't see that. Surely you know that there wasn't anyone on the planet earth that could see she was pregnant at 3 months, right? It can only mean she was pregnant by saying belly.

She might have left eagerly, especially when she learns that Elizabeth is also involved in this. But, to say she got up and walked out the door at that moment - no way, Jose. It's just not possible. It makes absolutely no logical sense. They aren't any different than we are today. And we don't have to know all the details. We just need to know that Mary was involved, Elizabeth was involved and most importantly, God was involved.

Let me ask you a question? Does Matthew and Luke tell the same nativity story of Jesus verbatim?

No, they tell different parts, just like Acts tells different parts of the Epistles.

Yes, when she returned from Elizabeth's. I mean we are taking 21st century United States couple waiting to go on their honeymoon. Just like she wouldn't of hot footed it to Elizabeth's with out some sort of guide, she couldn't just run over to Joe's place anytime she had the notion?

No one said she slipped out of the house to speak to Joseph.

Did you say that she was 12 years old? So, you pretty much understand that in their culture? OK, so she wasn't texting him and having him drive by to pick her up in his Ford F250. Seriously, she was a virgin, at NO TIME was she allowed to be alone with him until all decorum of their culture played through. She was found with child Matthew 1:18 before they came together.

Great truck choice. My husband's new Ford was just delivered an hour ago. He will be excited.

I personally don't know how old she was. I know she was under 20, but she could have been 13 or 14. Did she have to be alone with him to tell him her account with an angel?

"As you know, no one does anything with actual "haste" in the Middle East."
Please explain how you know this.

I personally know a Contractor who related how they operate business in the Middle East. He said they haven't changed over time and that they never get in a hurry, which is particularly frustrating.

Mark 6:25 this is just one verse which uses the same Greek word for haste, and it means eagerly, hurried, hasty, involving her talking to Joseph prior to her leaving really entails much more than knocking on Joseph's door before she takes off.

We don't really know the time frame. One translation says that "without delay, she got ready". Another says, "A few days later, Mary hurried"; "At that time Mary got ready and hurried...". Basically, it isn't logical to think she jet setted out of there or even burned off on Joseph.

With all due respect sister, you have a grocery to do list for Mary leaving town but seemingly not employing the same thought of a young girl having a meeting with her first century highly religious Judean husband.

We simply don't have enough information to say whether she spoke to him before or after she came back from seeing Elizabeth.

Sister, the girl just had an angelic being appear to her, and you want us to believe she sat down and planned a trip? She caught the first caravan out.

When was the first scheduled caravan leaving that she could catch? That morning, two days later. Did she hastily leave when a caravan was available?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

It also means womb, and you can't see that. Surely you know that there wasn't anyone on the planet earth that could see she was pregnant at 3 months, right? It can only mean she was pregnant by saying belly.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

When reading both accounts, it isn't clear to me that by being "found" with child, it was a visual confirmation, but a verbal confirmation. Being "found" can mean several things in the Greek - to see, learn, discover, understand.

Can't see that it can mean womb? Of course...

Sister, I just said what it literally says in the Greek, "found with belly" or as you pointed out "seen with belly"

Still is left up to the translator how they translate the word (or words). Translating it as "belly" doesn't contradict the meaning of the verse, just as translating it as "child" doesn't contradict the verse.

Again, she has a supernatural visitation of a messenger from God, she is a young virgin girl, she leaves for 3 months until her cousin gives birth, comes back and she is pregnant. She couldn't tell Joseph alone, that wasn't what happened in the ancient culture of Judea in the first century. Her being gone and coming back pregnant didn't look good to Joseph, and didn't look good to anyone else who knew. Stories about their deity coming down and placing a child in her womb seemed not to be swallowed either. Seeing that her husband needed to have a supernatural visitation of his own.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

She might have left eagerly, especially when she learns that Elizabeth is also involved in this.

There is no "might" have left eagerly, there is only left eagerly, some translators translate it as hurried. We don't have to guess here, we are told her intentions, and how earnestly she sought to leave. Claiming that she tooks days, weeks, or months is speculation o the part of the translators.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

But, to say she got up and walked out the door at that moment - no way, Jose.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

We don't really know the time frame. One translation says that "without delay, she got ready". Another says, "A few days later, Mary hurried"; "At that time Mary got ready and hurried...". Basically, it isn't logical to think she jet setted out of there or even burned off on Joseph.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

When was the first scheduled caravan leaving that she could catch? That morning, two days later. Did she hastily leave when a caravan was available?

The Greek text uses ἡμέρα in the plural which could mean somewhere between 48hrs. This is why some translations translate the passage "Soon after this Mary set out, and made her way quickly into the hill-country, to a town in Judah" or "Not long after this, Mary rose up and went in haste into the hill country to a town in Judah" or "Then Mary got up and went quickly into the high lands, to a town of Judah" None of these translations are incorrect, because in the Greek Mary was leaving somewhere under to 48hrs.
And she did it in a big hurry!

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

It's just not possible. It makes absolutely no logical sense. They aren't any different than we are today.

Sister they were hugely different then us. If a young girl was raped she had to marry the rapist, after the rapist paid fifty shekels of silver to the father, she also couldn't divorce the rapist no matter what Deuteronomy 22:27-29. A young girl had as much rights as her father deemed. She was married to whom the father wanted her to marry, and if the father had an older daughter she was to be married first before the youngest. Since their culture was so different than the United States, we must not mingle or cultural understandings with theirs. Even when we travel today, we cannot think that how we behave is how other cultures behave. Somethings we do (without thought) is insulting to certain cultures around the world. Why wouldn't we conceive that a culture 2,000 years old would be any different. Mary lived in a world enslaved by its religious law system, a law system which had been modified by it religious leaders Matthew 23:4.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

And we don't have to know all the details. We just need to know that Mary was involved, Elizabeth was involved and most importantly, God was involved.

Then why are we even having this discussion?

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

No, they tell different parts, just like Acts tells different parts of the Epistles.

Wunderbar meine Schwester!

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

No one said she slipped out of the house to speak to Joseph.

I'm sorry, but it sounds like that is what's being implied.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Great truck choice. My husband's new Ford was just delivered an hour ago. He will be excited.

I love it!

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I personally don't know how old she was. I know she was under 20, but she could have been 13 or 14. Did she have to be alone with him to tell him her account with an angel?

My point is that she couldn't be alone to talk with him.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I personally know a Contractor who related how they operate business in the Middle East. He said they haven't changed over time and that they never get in a hurry, which is particularly frustrating.

One Contractor's observation of modern Middle Eastern life not changing much for 2,000 years?

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

We simply don't have enough information to say whether she spoke to him before or after she came back from seeing Elizabeth.

It is just more reasonable that she spoke to him at her return from Elizabeth's home.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Wow, PO we sure know how to divert a thread.

This is a better diversion than arguing Bible translations, IMO.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by n david

This is a better diversion than arguing Bible translations, IMO.

NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.