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10-11-2016, 10:43 PM
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Saved by Grace
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Decatur, TX
Posts: 5,247
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Re: The emperor has new clothes ! WOWII?!?
....(continued)
So upon returning from Florida (April 2013) I was told what happened and that I would be preaching this Sunday and probably next. I preached. I could see how the situation had changed, and the following Sunday preached on Galatians 2 (Peter and Paul's dispute) and how that believers, even true believers have disagreements, but that shouldn't keep us from working through them because of our common love for Christ and mutual goal to glorify Him and expand His kingdom. It did not achieve the intended the result. In private conference it had been suggested that The elder who didn't agree with me becomeing an elder resigned before the next Sunday. He was filling the role of pastor. It was strange because in September 2012 he was the one who first brought up the idea of making me and elder while we ate lunch at a mexican resturant after church. He was 70, I was 32, yet we got along well. Celebrated New years together, our families enjoyed dinner together at each others houses, even when he resigned, he came to my house and spoke kindly to me, and it was to me he tendered his resignation. We got along great, I gave to his orphanages, I really am baffled why it worked out the way it did, unless he was just hurt that some people in the church wanted me to preach regularly. Anyway.....
From April 2013 I began to pastor the church, kind of thrown into it. Recall I had come to visit the church and was taking a break from preaching, and certainly from regualr preaching. This whole thing just happened by the course of events. But because the church was small and I had a good paying job that supported myself and family, I preached for free. At the time I just had my wife and my 2 girls, then 10 and 12. I worked a salary job of 6 days 55 hours a week. By this time I had begun doing jail ministry, which was bi-weekly on Thursday evenings. Then I took on the responsibility of pastoring. It was never easy, but still a great blessing. It drove me to prayer as never before. It drove me deeper in scripture. My whole focus was the church and the Word (because pretty much every evening is given to preperation or sturdy of some kind, when you work 6 days a week, and Sunday is your day off). But also, I didn't believe I was fully ready. It wasn't my desire to pastor. I would have loved helping and ministering occasionally, or rotating at most. When I began to do it full time, preperation and church things took all of my personal study time. So when you come at me about my beliefs, remember I was still in the mode of re-evaluating everything when this happened. I had arrived at firm positions on salvation and tithing. Still held to oneness and Jesus name baptism. But really hadn't gotten into the specifics of the theology debate to the degree I wanted to.
But, when I became pastor (actually some time before-for when the two groups split, I was asked to be involved in the statement of faith-and they ended up using my suggestions nearly verbatim, still available on the church website-fellowshipbiblentx.org). Because Bible churches operate similar to churches of Christ (independent autonomous congregations) there wasn't any issue with my oneness or baptism in Jesus name. So I wasn't forced by a fellowship to be one or the other. i had the freedom to work through these things and all other doctrinal issues, but the problem was the time. Which never seemed to come as I wanted.
But the thing is, when you pastor, you don't have to worry about not agreeing with the preacher. It's an ideal situation for someone who has a hybrid theology (which I admittedly did and do). I'm not a calvinist, but I find reformed theology profitible, while not subscribing to all the particulars. I'mnot a trinitarian, but don't automatically condemn them all to hell. The same can be said of eschatology, ecclesiology, etc.)
So after 1 1/2 years of pastoring, I get a letter one day asking me to care for a 7 month old infant in foster care, who is my second cousin by birth, whose existence I knew nothing of. I agree, but the process of CPS placement takes about 4 months. Come to find out he has a half brother who is 4 years old and has lukemia. Drugs are involved, both parents incarcerated, the 4 year old on chemo. They ask us to take both boys, then before placement split them up. We foster the then 13 month old. Incredibly difficult situation, he doesn't sleep through the night, he's been in 3 homes already in his life, later we find out he has a heart condition (but God is good and all is now well), and it was just a struggle, to work full time, pastor, do jail ministry, balance family life, and have an infant in the home who needed constant attention and woke up either 1am-4am or 2am-5am nightly. And when we woke up he didn't play. He screamed, 2-3 hours. My wife would take him to the living room, but no one slept. Then 7am-8am came, time to work. work to 6-7pm. Eat, study, repeat. Very challenging. I understand you said your church is like family, most of us feel that way too. But brother, I'm just telling you, this was hard. Nevertheless, we did this for about 7 months.
July 2015. I'm working, my wife calls. The 4 year old who was placed in a seperapte foster home has been taken into CPS custody. His foster parents got evicted. Because we were previously approved, he can come o our care, or goes into the foster care system again, likely never reunited with his brother. We had to make a decision right then, how could we say no? 1 hour later the boy is at my house. He is 4. He has been in 6 homes by this age. He has lukemia and is on chemo. My wife is given a briefing and the worker leaves. No tylenol, no medicines of anykind except his perscriptions. He has a port surgically installed in his chest and if he runs a fever of 100 or more we must take him to Cooks hospital in Fort Worth where the cancer doctors are. Can't take him to local doctors or even Wise Regional hospital.
Ok, we understand. I come home and he's just laying on the couch. The CPS worker said he had a strange rash. His hands and feet are all crippled up like. He's whiny, he won't eat, etc. I thought, well its a new place, he doesn't know any of us (except his infant brother a very little) and he's got lukemia, this is probably how a kid with special needs acts. I had no experience dealing with that. Here's here 4 days and begins running a fever, it worsens the next day to 100 we take him to cooks. It turns out he has hand foot mouth disease and because of his condition not only is he hospitilized, he has to stay there until he is fever free for 24-48hours. Thus begins a hospital stay of 2 weeks. But because he is a minor, only myself or my wife can stay with him, and one is required to be with him at all times in the hospital. So we take turns driving to Fort Worth (about 100 miles round trip) each day and sleeping at the hospital. On my days home, I work. Still pastoring the church, and taking care of the other 3 kids. After taking on the second child, then all the medical issues, I began to realize, I can't continue to do this. I can't work, pastor, do jail ministry, and balance 4 kids from ages 1 to 14, all with different needs of attention. The 4 year old was released from the hospital, but still had bi weekly appointments and chemo treatments through January this year (2016). It was alot.
In time the oppertnity for adoption came up. I had to give consideration how I could best serve God. I am pro-life. what a difference it would make to raise the children in a godly home. How could I say no, turn them back to the system? Yet obviously I can't continue at the current pace. I've got to cut something out. But still I kept on. Week after week July 2015 through April 2016.
Finally after much prayer I had peace on the direction to go. Though I would have preferred to pastor, I pastored for free, and the church wasn't in position to pay me enough to quit my job, and part time wasn't an option. Thus I resigned. It was for 2 primary reasons:
1)my family and to spend time with all the children. There were big adjustments. The 2 older children began to feel left out, because the young boys demanded so much attention, and at times they felt like baby sitters. The youngest had for 12 years been the baby, and all of a sudden, becomes a middle child. Adjustments. We worked through them, but it wasn't always easy. I believed I needed to take something off my plate. I choose a hiatus from ministry.
2)Doctrine. As mentioned, from June 2010 to Aug 2011, and even then until April 2013, I had focused much on study, and re-evaluating and reforming my views as I studied theology. What I thought would be tweaking, I came to see really that I needed to re-evaluate everything, doctrine by doctrine, to see whether these things were so.
I once heard Denver Stanford talk about how he won a man, and the man said, "Pastor you've won me, now tell me what I believe." That was pretty much what happened to me. I knew NOTHING of Christianity, was deep in sin, came across Irvin Baxter (I know, I know....but for whatever reason this was what God used to introduce me to Himself). When I read his tract "what do you mean born again" I fully realized my need, went to a baptist church, got baptized, attended, began reading through all of scripture.
Two months in I read his tract "why so many churches and which is right" and become convinced of the need to be repabtized in Jesus name. Not knowing anything about church or denominations (or what Baxter was) I get out the phone book and start calling church to ask how they baptize. I find a UPC, go there the next Sunday, baptized in Jesus name January 23,2000, belonged to that church 8 years.....
But when that happened, I had 2 months of anything Christian in my life. I went through Search for Truth, into his marvelous light, the david bernard pentecostal theology series, etc, etc. I learned evrything only from a oneness perspective, and believed it 110%.
THUS when I began to re-evaluate things and my positions changed 10-11 years later, as I moved, I realized the need to restudy everything. This process was interrupted by (at least according to mans point of view) pastoring a church for 3 years before I had arrived firm on many positions that I continue to study out. And while the experience was great, and really helped me in the discipline of prayer and spitirual maturity, and actually went relatively well on the whole (though the church didn't grow as I would have desired), I have to admit, that I was at least (in my opinion) somewhat not ready to take on the pastorate with all that comes with it. Yet to have worked through 3 years after the church split, and all the personal challenges, I feel good about it. I believe God was honored and yet I was edified in the experience. I believe God has worked it for my good, and I have no regrets in doing it, nor do I regret the messages I preached.
Yet still I have desired time to take a break from ministry and to firm some things up through continued study.
So since April of this year, thats where I am. I went through the process of finding a church, and am now attending a church that while I don't agree with it 100% (as I'm not likely to find a church like that), I agree with probably 80% and it's been very profitible for myself, my wife and my children. I'm not sure I'll be there the next 10 years. But its a good place to be for now.
So then, thats my journey, criticize me as much as you want.
__________________
"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
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10-11-2016, 11:04 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 39,162
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Re: The emperor has new clothes ! WOWII?!?
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Originally Posted by Jason B
But the thing is, when you pastor, you don't have to worry about not agreeing with the preacher. It's an ideal situation for someone who has a hybrid theology (which I admittedly did and do). I'm not a calvinist, but I find reformed theology profitible, while not subscribing to all the particulars. I'mnot a trinitarian, but don't automatically condemn them all to hell. The same can be said of eschatology, ecclesiology, etc.)
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Jason, may God help you, but you are a wee bit mixed up. Sort of like a fruit salad, some cherries, a few bananas, some mango pieces, maybe even some raisins, but where did the sardines come from? You aren't a Calvinist, but you find reformed theology profitable? What portion of Calvinism is Biblical? You're not a Trinitarian but cant seem to bring yourself to accept that it's a narrow way, and the entrance is hard to navigate and few will even be able to find it? These few will also be screaming at Jesus how they did many wonderful works in His name, but He will reply to them that He NEVER knew them?
Dude, in a ideology which demands nothing to be added to it and nothing taken away, or else you lose your place in a book of life. You can't go around and hope that all the smiling glowing faces around you are falling into heaven. Paul said there were those who had another Gospel and he called them anathema? Dude, that is utterly removed from God, irrevocable. American Christianity basically helped ruin this country by teaching that Jesus was cool with everything they ran up the flag pole.
So, could you explain without writing an entire tome what you believe is profitable about reformed theology soteriology?
__________________
“Burn the Boats!!!” — Hernan Cortes
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10-11-2016, 11:18 PM
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Saved by Grace
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Decatur, TX
Posts: 5,247
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Re: The emperor has new clothes ! WOWII?!?
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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
Dude, you are the product of a very dramatic Pentecostal sleigh ride.
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Maybe so. And believe me, thats not the half of my pentecostal experience. Yet God still worked through it all. Really it wasn't even "bad" until the very end with the one pastor. I found far more vitriol on internet forums, especially AMF.
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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
How long were you supposedly Apostolic? You said you were UC?
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8 years upc, 2 years in indy holiness Jan 2000-June 2010
1 year in ex-upc, charismatic church July 2010-July 2011
Began attending a Bible church Aug 2011-remained there through April 2016 (pastored 3 years April 2013-April 2016)
Currently attending a Bible church.
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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
You accuse me of discrediting you?
My man, I believe you need to take full credit for that.
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Attempting to discredit. Probably only successful in the eyes of the UCs. But even if others draw unfavorable opinions of me, it is what it is. If i were standing before ya'll judgment day, maybe I'd be concerned. I have a great peace about where I am, while also understanding I need to use this season of my life to prepare for what's next. I do intend to return to ministry later on, but for now, I'd like to take time off to study. I'm 35, I hope to get at least 5 years of study before what happens next. If I can get back into ministry full time around 40, I figure I can spend a good 30-35 years doing that, which is my desire. But God knows. We'll see. Thats just my thoughts from a mans point of view.
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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
So are you a Calvinist?
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No. Hence the tension in my beliefs. I do believe Reformed theology is very profitible, the emphasis on theology, the focus on the various aspects of salvation, the atonement, proper worship, etc. But at the same time, I just can't get sold on predestination/election as they interpret it. I really can't see how they can say God wills everything, including every evil act, yea even the fall, and yet not make God the author of sin. I can't see how they say God choose some from before time to be saved, and yet did not choose others leaving them to perdition (some calvinists deny or soften double predestination, others just come out and say it--either way its the only locigal result of their view of election). Thus God has created people, even the majority, to burn in hell forever, for His pleasure and glory, who not only did not desire to be saved, but could not be saved if they wanted to. Its contrary to the character and nature of God. To me it seems an insult to His goodness, His love, even His truthfulness. For how can He truly will none to perish, and yet all to come to repentance, when the majority are not even capable of doing so. How can Christ's death truly be for the sins of the whole world, when in fact, He did not die for the majority of sinners? And so on.
Call it confusion if you want. I examine each doctrine and teaching with the scriptures, and I am working through all these things.
No I am not comfortable with The "U" in tulip. The rst I find a lot of agreement with, but not 100%.
Brief examples:
Total depravity-I agree man is totally depraved in every aspect of his being. I believe that all men are sinners. I believe that without the help of the Holy Spirit no man can come to God, nor do they desire to. (But I also believe the Spirit enables all men to come to Him. That the Spirit is drawing men when He convicts them of sin, and yet, unlike the calvinist, I believe the grace of God can be rejected). Still I believe in previent grace. John 6:44
limited atonement-I agree the atonement is limited, but only in the sense that it is effective only to those who believe. I disagree that Christ only died for certain people, and did not die for others.
Irrestible grace-noted above
preservation of the saints-While I still haven't fully embraced this, because I think there are problematic scriptures ( Hebrews 6, 10, 1 Cor 9:27, etc), I see alot of merit in it, that if a person is truly saved, truly has the spirit of God, they will persevere to the end. BUT like I said, still some scripture that doesn't seem to justify that view, so I can't fully embrace it.
But, from what I was as a pentecostal, hyper arminian-cut your hair endanger salvation, quit coming to church endanger your salvation, join another denomination lose your salvation, come pray through be saved again, backslide be lost again, pray through again several months later saved again, etc. That was a mess.
To me, David's sin in the OT is a good example of God's mercy toward His own. David had committed adultery, premeditated murder, and lived with it all for 9 months, plus however old the child was that God took. Yet we are never given any indication God had cast David off.
Its my opinion, that had David told Nathan (I do what I want I'm the king!) that perhaps that would have been the moment God turned away from Him and David "lost his salvation" to use a crude phrase. Yet David repented, and through this ordeal was made right with God, yet we are never given any indication He wasn't. TO me, that gives us an idea about the grace of God. The person who backslides, who cuts their hair, goes charismatic, or even is overtaken by some sin, even a grievious one, isn't necessarily lost. God will discipline His own, and draw them back into rightful fellowship.
Yet if they persist in unbelief, disobedience,sin and rebellion, and die in such as state we have no reason to believe they were saved. This is where the rub comes-they would say "they were never saved in the first place" and may be right. Pentecostals would say "they were saved and turned away". My view would be closer to the latter.
__________________
"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
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10-11-2016, 11:23 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,018
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Re: The emperor has new clothes ! WOWII?!?
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Originally Posted by Jason B
Alright I like it. A nice rebuttal with some substance and counter questioning. EB, this is why I continue to come to AFF, not because I hate pentecostals.
I'll respond, as you have taken time to respond. But i have a long day at work, then hockey practice afterwards. So it may be a day or two.
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bump....
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10-12-2016, 12:28 AM
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Saved by Grace
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Decatur, TX
Posts: 5,247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
bump....
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Brother, believe this.
I spent probably 45 minutes or so responding to your post (had good stuff too) I was nearly done and my tablet died. A huge bummer. I had plugged it into the wall so i thought in was safe. Even thought of posting it then editing it about 30 seconds before, but i was like "nah I'm almost done" then.....black screen. I'd like to respond tomorrow, while hopefully, those thoughts are on my mind. As it is though I've spent more time online/forums tonight than I have in a very long time, and its 1:26am here, so about 2 hours past my bedtime, and work in the am. So if the opportunity presents itself tomorrow afternoon or evening, I'll reply.
Unless of course it is predestined not to be.
__________________
"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
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10-12-2016, 04:29 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,018
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Re: The emperor has new clothes ! WOWII?!?
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Originally Posted by Jason B
Brother, believe this.
I spent probably 45 minutes or so responding to your post (had good stuff too) I was nearly done and my tablet died. A huge bummer. I had plugged it into the wall so i thought in was safe. Even thought of posting it then editing it about 30 seconds before, but i was like "nah I'm almost done" then.....black screen. I'd like to respond tomorrow, while hopefully, those thoughts are on my mind. As it is though I've spent more time online/forums tonight than I have in a very long time, and its 1:26am here, so about 2 hours past my bedtime, and work in the am. So if the opportunity presents itself tomorrow afternoon or evening, I'll reply.
Unless of course it is predestined not to be.
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Take your time. It is your destiny.
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10-13-2016, 06:30 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 39,162
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Re: The emperor has new clothes ! WOWII?!?
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Originally Posted by Jason B
Maybe so. And believe me, thats not the half of my pentecostal experience. Yet God still worked through it all. Really it wasn't even "bad" until the very end with the one pastor. I found far more vitriol on internet forums, especially AMF.
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So, all this hubbub is because you were offended by a minister? Whatever! Lois has a whole website dedicated to the offended. I wonder when a preacher is going to start a website on congregation spiritual abuse towards ministers? You always hear the hard stories about the preacher who didn't buy cookies for all the saints equally. Or the mean pastor's wife who lived in the gingerbread house and would coax unsuspecting saints into her oven. Or the pastor's children who would lure saints into the cornfield to be never seen again. Preachers give up a lot to do what they do, and for the majority the tithing isn't making them Daddy Warbucks. No, most are sucking on their wallets, and trying to get everything moving forward. Even your pastor who said you were going to hell wasn't lighting cigars with hundred dollar bills. I mean your folded (in 15 different ways) dollar bill dropped into the basket wasn't making him Warren Buffet.
Right?
__________________
“Burn the Boats!!!” — Hernan Cortes
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10-13-2016, 07:33 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 39,162
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Re: The emperor has new clothes ! WOWII?!?
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Originally Posted by Jason B
8 years upc, 2 years in indy holiness Jan 2000-June 2010
1 year in ex-upc, charismatic church July 2010-July 2011
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This is supposed to mean....????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason B
Began attending a Bible church Aug 2011-remained there through April 2016 (pastored 3 years April 2013-April 2016)
Currently attending a Bible church.
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Non Denominational Trinitarian Vanilla?
There was a band named WAR who had a tune which comes to mind right about now. I believe it was called Slippin into ........
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Originally Posted by Jason B
Attempting to discredit. Probably only successful in the eyes of the UCs.
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Jason? Allow me to be the first one to tell you that your entire life will be surrounded by those who love you, who like you, who don't like you, who don't care about you, and who will lie about you. But guess what? Your enemies will only believe the bad information about you and those who love you will ignore it.
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Originally Posted by Jason B
But even if others draw unfavorable opinions of me, it is what it is.
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But isn't that fantastic!?!
In the grand scheme of things who cares about anyone's opinions?
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Originally Posted by Jason B
If i were standing before ya'll judgment day, maybe I'd be concerned. I have a great peace about where I am,
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There are Muslims, NOI, Chabad Lubavitchers, Jehovah Witnesses, Baptists, Presbyterians, Eastern Orthodox, Scientologists, Roman Catholics, Sedevacantists, and Hindu elephant boys who can say the same thing. Yes, and people in mental institutions on psychotropic drugs. All in peace about where they currently stand. No worries, all is well, sleep, sleep, go to sleep.
Good grief.
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Originally Posted by Jason B
while also understanding I need to use this season of my life to prepare for what's next.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason B
I do intend to return to ministry later on, but for now, I'd like to take time off to study. I'm 35,
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason B
I hope to get at least 5 years of study before what happens next.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason B
If I can get back into ministry full time around 40, I figure I can spend a good 30-35 years doing that, which is my desire. But God knows. We'll see. Thats just my thoughts from a mans point of view.
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This pretty much sums up all your posts. If you count the years backwards and really get an objective view of your journey in rewind. You may see that it has been more a journey motivated by your own human will, then God's.
Hey, I'm just somebody on a forum with you, that's just my opinion. But hey, you been running your own show for awhile, and you obviously have the resume. If Jesus preached and David played his harp, you would still do as your very well please. Yet, there are people who aren't hunting down those they left behind. They just move on, and get on with what they are doing. They don't need to self justify themselves to anyone. Like I have posted to you before, you are the one eyed man, and we are the blind. What should anyone do with that?
__________________
“Burn the Boats!!!” — Hernan Cortes
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10-13-2016, 07:57 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 39,162
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Re: The emperor has new clothes ! WOWII?!?
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Originally Posted by Jason B
No. Hence the tension in my beliefs.
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You've said a mouthful there Hoss.
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Originally Posted by Jason B
I do believe Reformed theology is very profitible, the emphasis on theology, the focus on the various aspects of salvation, the atonement, proper worship, etc.
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Which is....?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason B
But at the same time, I just can't get sold on predestination/election as they interpret it. I really can't see how they can say God wills everything, including every evil act, yea even the fall, and yet not make God the author of sin.
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But, sorry, that's the lynch pins of Reformed Theology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason B
I can't see how they say God choose some from before time to be saved, and yet did not choose others leaving them to perdition (some calvinists deny or soften double predestination, others just come out and say it--either way its the only locigal result of their view of election). Thus God has created people, even the majority, to burn in hell forever, for His pleasure and glory, who not only did not desire to be saved, but could not be saved if they wanted to.
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Sorry, but that is what Reformed Theology is all about.
It's like working with roofing tar, you may work your hardest not to get it on you, but sooner or later you find it on you....somewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason B
Its contrary to the character and nature of God. To me it seems an insult to His goodness, His love, even His truthfulness. For how can He truly will none to perish, and yet all to come to repentance, when the majority are not even capable of doing so. How can Christ's death truly be for the sins of the whole world, when in fact, He did not die for the majority of sinners? And so on.
Call it confusion if you want. I examine each doctrine and teaching with the scriptures, and I am working through all these things.
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Jason, for someone who is working through "things" you sure have a great need to straighten all of us midgets out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason B
No I am not comfortable with The "U" in tulip. The rst I find a lot of agreement with, but not 100%.
Brief examples:
Total depravity-I agree man is totally depraved in every aspect of his being. I believe that all men are sinners. I believe that without the help of the Holy Spirit no man can come to God, nor do they desire to. (But I also believe the Spirit enables all men to come to Him. That the Spirit is drawing men when He convicts them of sin, and yet, unlike the calvinist, I believe the grace of God can be rejected).
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But that's where they would get you. Because you accept some of what they teach, yet believe God's Spirit can be resisted. I live almost down the block from Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, and they will sit for hours discussing the TULIP. How you can't reject any portion of it. I believe Reformed Theology is flawed, being a pendulum swing from the theology of the Catholic church they were breaking away from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason B
Still I believe in previent grace. John 6:44
limited atonement-I agree the atonement is limited, but only in the sense that it is effective only to those who believe. I disagree that Christ only died for certain people, and did not die for others.
Irrestible grace-noted above
preservation of the saints-While I still haven't fully embraced this, because I think there are problematic scriptures ( Hebrews 6, 10, 1 Cor 9:27, etc), I see alot of merit in it, that if a person is truly saved, truly has the spirit of God, they will persevere to the end. BUT like I said, still some scripture that doesn't seem to justify that view, so I can't fully embrace it.
But, from what I was as a pentecostal, hyper arminian-cut your hair endanger salvation, quit coming to church endanger your salvation, join another denomination lose your salvation, come pray through be saved again, backslide be lost again, pray through again several months later saved again, etc. That was a mess.
To me, David's sin in the OT is a good example of God's mercy toward His own. David had committed adultery, premeditated murder, and lived with it all for 9 months, plus however old the child was that God took. Yet we are never given any indication God had cast David off.
Its my opinion, that had David told Nathan (I do what I want I'm the king!) that perhaps that would have been the moment God turned away from Him and David "lost his salvation" to use a crude phrase. Yet David repented, and through this ordeal was made right with God, yet we are never given any indication He wasn't. TO me, that gives us an idea about the grace of God. The person who backslides, who cuts their hair, goes charismatic, or even is overtaken by some sin, even a grievious one, isn't necessarily lost. God will discipline His own, and draw them back into rightful fellowship.
Yet if they persist in unbelief, disobedience,sin and rebellion, and die in such as state we have no reason to believe they were saved. This is where the rub comes-they would say "they were never saved in the first place" and may be right. Pentecostals would say "they were saved and turned away". My view would be closer to the latter.
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Hence this is why some Once Saved Always Saved Baptists and Calvinists use the they were NEVER SAVED clause.
It is all about Freewill, which Reformed Theology cringes at.
Freewill is what we all have.
Hence we need to put on Christ instead of putting on Adam.
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“Burn the Boats!!!” — Hernan Cortes
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10-13-2016, 08:19 PM
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Saved by Grace
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Decatur, TX
Posts: 5,247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
So, all this hubbub is because you were offended by a minister? Whatever! Lois has a whole website dedicated to the offended. I wonder when a preacher is going to start a website on congregation spiritual abuse towards ministers? You always hear the hard stories about the preacher who didn't buy cookies for all the saints equally. Or the mean pastor's wife who lived in the gingerbread house and would coax unsuspecting saints into her oven. Or the pastor's children who would lure saints into the cornfield to be never seen again. Preachers give up a lot to do what they do, and for the majority the tithing isn't making them Daddy Warbucks. No, most are sucking on their wallets, and trying to get everything moving forward. Even your pastor who said you were going to hell wasn't lighting cigars with hundred dollar bills. I mean your folded (in 15 different ways) dollar bill dropped into the basket wasn't making him Warren Buffet.
Right?
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Dead wrong. Every word.
Carry on.
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"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
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