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  #31  
Old 08-31-2017, 04:15 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Marriage.

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Originally Posted by LOVE JESUS View Post
I would think it is against the law of the land to marry a couple without the wedding license. It would not be legal. I know my husband will not marry anyone unless he has possession of the license and he mails it in himself. It was a state law where we lived that the person performing the ceremony had to mail in the license - no exceptions.
This is where Paul and Peter's writing about submitting to the authority and ordinances comes into play. If the law requires civil marriage, you should follow the law.
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  #32  
Old 08-31-2017, 04:33 PM
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Re: Marriage.

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Originally Posted by n david View Post
This is where Paul and Peter's writing about submitting to the authority and ordinances comes into play. If the law requires civil marriage, you should follow the law.
Submission to HIGHER authority is required. Thus, if a court requires one thing, but a superior court requires something else, the ruling of the superior court is to be followed, not the lower court.

And the highest authority is God. Marriage was instituted by God prior to the existence of the state. Thus marriage is governed primarily by God's Law (Word), and only secondarily by the state as it fulfills its God-ordained responsibility of promoting good and punishing evil. And therefore the state's requirements must be facilitative, and not interfere with, God's design for and regulation of marriage.

So then, the state does not create a marriage, nor does the state dissolve a marriage, it can only confirm what God has ordained, and prohibit was God has prohibited. Anything beyond that is usurpation of authority, is an act of rebellion against God, and is to be rebuked by the church.

Compliance with secular edicts that go beyond Biblically defined mandates is often expedient, but must never interfere with obedience to God, and must not be seen as replacements of Biblical requirements.
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  #33  
Old 08-31-2017, 04:54 PM
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Re: Marriage.

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Submission to HIGHER authority is required. Thus, if a court requires one thing, but a superior court requires something else, the ruling of the superior court is to be followed, not the lower court.

And the highest authority is God. Marriage was instituted by God prior to the existence of the state. Thus marriage is governed primarily by God's Law (Word), and only secondarily by the state as it fulfills its God-ordained responsibility of promoting good and punishing evil. And therefore the state's requirements must be facilitative, and not interfere with, God's design for and regulation of marriage.

So then, the state does not create a marriage, nor does the state dissolve a marriage, it can only confirm what God has ordained, and prohibit was God has prohibited. Anything beyond that is usurpation of authority, is an act of rebellion against God, and is to be rebuked by the church.

Compliance with secular edicts that go beyond Biblically defined mandates is often expedient, but must never interfere with obedience to God, and must not be seen as replacements of Biblical requirements.
An example:

The US recognizes and performs "gay marriage". Such persons, however, are not in fact married. Likewise, such persons who obtain a legal "divorce" are not in fact divorced, either. Two men who go to the courthouse and get papered are in fornication, not married, regardless of what the state says. And if they "divorced" they are not actually divorced persons. Why? Because marriage (and thus divorce) is defined by God, not the state, not "we the people", not a judge, court, king, pope, priest, or preacher.
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  #34  
Old 08-31-2017, 04:55 PM
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Re: Marriage.

Marriage laws change from country to country, century to century, decade to decade. But God doesn't change. Therefore, actual marriage doesn't change.
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  #35  
Old 08-31-2017, 05:15 PM
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Re: Marriage.

Suppose a state were to allow a man to marry his father's wife. They would be legally "married".

But such a union is prohibited by God (Deut 22:30). This prohibition is recognized as valid in the New Testament (1 Cor 5:1, where it is specifically called fornication). Since such unions are prohibited by Divine edict, no amount of state paperwork can make them legitimate.

Now, suppose such a man becomes a Christian. He divorces the woman, and is now legally a divorced man. How is the church to relate to him?

According to the state, he was married, and is now divorced. According to God, he was a fornicator, and has now repented. Thus, the question "Can he marry a woman?" should be answered by the church on the basis of God's Word, not the state's. He never was actually married, anymore than two men could be, or a man and his dog, or a man and himself, could be married.
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  #36  
Old 08-31-2017, 05:37 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Marriage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Submission to HIGHER authority is required. Thus, if a court requires one thing, but a superior court requires something else, the ruling of the superior court is to be followed, not the lower court.

And the highest authority is God. Marriage was instituted by God prior to the existence of the state. Thus marriage is governed primarily by God's Law (Word), and only secondarily by the state as it fulfills its God-ordained responsibility of promoting good and punishing evil. And therefore the state's requirements must be facilitative, and not interfere with, God's design for and regulation of marriage.

So then, the state does not create a marriage, nor does the state dissolve a marriage, it can only confirm what God has ordained, and prohibit was God has prohibited. Anything beyond that is usurpation of authority, is an act of rebellion against God, and is to be rebuked by the church.

Compliance with secular edicts that go beyond Biblically defined mandates is often expedient, but must never interfere with obedience to God, and must not be seen as replacements of Biblical requirements.
You believe Romans 13 isn't about government?

What is Peter speaking of in 1 Peter 2:13, when he states we should submit to the ordinances of man?
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  #37  
Old 08-31-2017, 05:39 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Marriage.

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
An example:

The US recognizes and performs "gay marriage". Such persons, however, are not in fact married. Likewise, such persons who obtain a legal "divorce" are not in fact divorced, either. Two men who go to the courthouse and get papered are in fornication, not married, regardless of what the state says. And if they "divorced" they are not actually divorced persons. Why? Because marriage (and thus divorce) is defined by God, not the state, not "we the people", not a judge, court, king, pope, priest, or preacher.
Not sure what the point here is. Obviously we know the Bible is against homosexuality. Who, here, is desiring to marry a person of the same sex?
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  #38  
Old 08-31-2017, 05:42 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Marriage.

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Marriage laws change from country to country, century to century, decade to decade. But God doesn't change. Therefore, actual marriage doesn't change.
And yet Peter wrote that we should submit to the ordinances of man. The only exclusion I've read where we are not to follow the law is if it would compromise our faith. Signing a marriage license does not compromise one's faith.
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  #39  
Old 08-31-2017, 08:24 PM
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Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Marriage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOVE JESUS View Post
I would think it is against the law of the land to marry a couple without the wedding license. It would not be legal. I know my husband will not marry anyone unless he has possession of the license and he mails it in himself. It was a state law where we lived that the person performing the ceremony had to mail in the license - no exceptions.
You are correct, if a minister is licensed with the state, some states prohibit them from marrying a couple that haven't filled for a marriage license.

You see, the licensing never ends.

But when it comes to Quakers, house churches, and many other independent churches, they do not have elders that are licensed by the state, so they are not beholden to the state. Once something is licensed with the state, it belongs to the state, even preachers. As for Quakers and house church pastors and elders, it would be illegal for them to sign and submit a state marriage certificate. This insulates them from state control. In this, they will bless couples, even perform commitment ceremonies (which are legal for state licensed ministers), and Quaker weddings, and covenant marriages.

There is an excellent book titled, Sovereign Christian Marriage, that covers all of these legalities and their implications.
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  #40  
Old 08-31-2017, 08:36 PM
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Re: Marriage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by n david View Post
This is where Paul and Peter's writing about submitting to the authority and ordinances comes into play. If the law requires civil marriage, you should follow the law.
Quakers have been performing unregistered marriages for over 200 years. Quakers, house churches, and many independent churches will gladly perform them even today. And guess what? Because these pastors and elders are not licensed with the state, there is no penalty.

Remember, in marriage, "legal" means subject to state legalities not "illegal".
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