Most complex explanation of the Godhead ever!

[Michael The Disciple]

I think your getting closer with this one. You should note that Jesus Christ thought it not robbery, Jesus Christ took on the form of a servant. This is all speaking of the man Christ Jesus. not the son in heaven humbling himself and then coming to earth, that is the Trinitarian position.

The man Christ Jesus was not equal to God. He prayed to God and did his will. The Son coming from Heaven is not Trinitarianism until it is twisted to say God the Son came down from Heaven.

Other faiths besides Trins teach the Son came from Heaven.

Jesus said he came down from Heaven but he was still in Heaven.

And no man has ascended into Heaven except who who came down from Heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

You mentioned here that the form of God beforetimes was angelic or spirit form. I think I'm understanding you if your simply saying 1. God is a spirit 2. God has chosen in times past to appear as a man or other such as an angelic being to relate to man. Such as with Abraham. I would just be very cautious to say that any appearance was the son.

It goes much deeper than that. God actually rules over a kingdom in Heaven. His servants the Angels see him in his majesty. They have conversations with him. Both he and they have spiritual or "heavenly" bodies.

2 Chronicles 18: 18-22

18Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. 19And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. 20Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? 21And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. 22Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

YAH had an Angelic presence that was his own. True he used various angels as messengers for himself. And yet there was one that had within it HIS NAME.

Isaiah 63:9

9In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

The modern "Apostolic" doctrine that God had no body or image until Bethlehem is a minimizing of the glory of God.

In discussion/debate with the Trins Oneness usually start out well. Then when they begin their frail doctrine that Christ pre existed ONLY as a "thought" or "plan" the Trins tear them to pieces.

[Michael The Disciple]

[QUOTE=Apostolic1ness;1532827]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

You can't put me against the Apostles they are not in question. Still seems like your saying the express image was with God in the beginning.
The Logos or word was God, the word or Logos was made flesh, the flesh which was Jesus was the express image. The express image was the man and the express image was not with God in the beginning

Well yes that exactly what Paul said.

Heb. 1:1-3

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

I agree with Paul. You do not.

[Michael The Disciple]

This is a quote from Elder Drysdales book.

In the early 1930's the Lord Jesus Christ Himself appeared to Theodore Fitch, who was a Trinitarian, and revealed the Oneness of the Godhead to him. Rev. Fitch immediately set about writing his book "The Deity of Jesus." It is still the most comprehensive work ever published on the Oneness. Fitch wrote many other books on the Oneness which enjoyed wide circulation among believers. I quote from "The Deity of Jesus" page 4:

"The 'Angel of the Lord' represented the Great Eternal Spirit that filled the Universe. The Spirit of God was present everywhere. The Angel 'Person' of God was God in One Place. Please notice that everytime the Angel of the Lord appeared or spoke to anyone it was God Himself 'in person'... Before the Son of God was born of the Virgin Mary, the Lord God existed in two definite ways. God was manifested as an Angelic Spirit 'Person' and as an omnipresent Spirit, that is present everywhere all the time. His 'Person' was in the form of a man, and His eternal Spirit was without form, body or parts" (Theodore Fitch, The Deity of Jesus, Pentecostal Publishing House, Hazelwood, MO n.d., p. 4).

"Before the incarnation, the fullness of God dwell in a Spirit body which was in the form of a man. This beautiful angel body was made flesh by the power of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the Virgin Mary. This made the God-Angel a God-man... If the Word or 'Person' of God was made flesh, then the Father is the Son and the Son is the Father.. The Word that was God, was 'made over' into a flesh man (John 1:14). When God the Word was made flesh, he became a Son, but still remained God, he still remained the same Person... The angel Person of the Lord from Heaven is now called the Son of God" (Fitch, p. 22,23).

Many modern Oneness teachers need to be schooled in true Oneness doctrine.

[Apostolic1ness]

[QUOTE=Michael The Disciple;1532830]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Well yes that exactly what Paul said.

Heb. 1:1-3

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

I agree with Paul. You do not.

Your still not getting it. He is talking about the messiah Jesus. Easly understood in no way do I disagree with Paul. I would like you to explain where I have.
Tell me where was the son during creation, in what form, location?

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This is a quote from Elder Drysdales book.

In the early 1930's the Lord Jesus Christ Himself appeared to Theodore Fitch, who was a Trinitarian, and revealed the Oneness of the Godhead to him. Rev. Fitch immediately set about writing his book "The Deity of Jesus." It is still the most comprehensive work ever published on the Oneness. Fitch wrote many other books on the Oneness which enjoyed wide circulation among believers. I quote from "The Deity of Jesus" page 4:

"The 'Angel of the Lord' represented the Great Eternal Spirit that filled the Universe. The Spirit of God was present everywhere. The Angel 'Person' of God was God in One Place. Please notice that everytime the Angel of the Lord appeared or spoke to anyone it was God Himself 'in person'... Before the Son of God was born of the Virgin Mary, the Lord God existed in two definite ways. God was manifested as an Angelic Spirit 'Person' and as an omnipresent Spirit, that is present everywhere all the time. His 'Person' was in the form of a man, and His eternal Spirit was without form, body or parts" (Theodore Fitch, The Deity of Jesus, Pentecostal Publishing House, Hazelwood, MO n.d., p. 4).

"Before the incarnation, the fullness of God dwell in a Spirit body which was in the form of a man. This beautiful angel body was made flesh by the power of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the Virgin Mary. This made the God-Angel a God-man... If the Word or 'Person' of God was made flesh, then the Father is the Son and the Son is the Father.. The Word that was God, was 'made over' into a flesh man (John 1:14). When God the Word was made flesh, he became a Son, but still remained God, he still remained the same Person... The angel Person of the Lord from Heaven is now called the Son of God" (Fitch, p. 22,23).

Many modern Oneness teachers need to be schooled in true Oneness doctrine.

Sorry but the quotes of this book are not accurate oneness doctrine.
1. The book says that God before the incarnation that God existed in two definite ways as an angelic spirit person and as an omnipresent spirit.
Is would be more accurate to say that God existed as an omnipresent spirit and at times appeared to mankind as an angelic form of a person.
2. To say that before the incarnation the fullness of God dwelt in a spirit body that was in the form of a man...
This is saying that Jesus had a literal image in heaven before the incarnation..this is not so..
3.the angel person of the lord in heaven is now called the son of God..
This is not accurate...

I have not read the book but based on these quotes you presented I won't be.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The man Christ Jesus was not equal to God. He prayed to God and did his will. The Son coming from Heaven is not Trinitarianism until it is twisted to say God the Son came down from Heaven.

Other faiths besides Trins teach the Son came from Heaven.

Jesus said he came down from Heaven but he was still in Heaven.

And no man has ascended into Heaven except who who came down from Heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.



It goes much deeper than that. God actually rules over a kingdom in Heaven. His servants the Angels see him in his majesty. They have conversations with him. Both he and they have spiritual or "heavenly" bodies.

2 Chronicles 18: 18-22

18Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. 19And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. 20Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? 21And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. 22Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

YAH had an Angelic presence that was his own. True he used various angels as messengers for himself. And yet there was one that had within it HIS NAME.

Isaiah 63:9

9In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

The modern "Apostolic" doctrine that God had no body or image until Bethlehem is a minimizing of the glory of God.

In discussion/debate with the Trins Oneness usually start out well. Then when they begin their frail doctrine that Christ pre existed ONLY as a "thought" or "plan" the Trins tear them to pieces.

Is it your view concerning Jesus thinking it not robbery, that these thoughts were in heaven or in earth?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Sorry but the quotes of this book are not accurate oneness doctrine.
1. The book says that God before the incarnation that God existed in two definite ways as an angelic spirit person and as an omnipresent spirit.
Is would be more accurate to say that God existed as an omnipresent spirit and at times appeared to mankind as an angelic form of a person.

I dont see the difference between the two descriptions?

2. To say that before the incarnation the fullness of God dwelt in a spirit body that was in the form of a man...
This is saying that Jesus had a literal image in heaven before the incarnation..this is not so..

Can you prove your statement with Scripture?

3.the angel person of the lord in heaven is now called the son of God..
This is not accurate...

If the "angel person of the Lord" is the Logos, and the Logos is in heaven, and the Logos is called "the son of God", then the statement is entirely accurate.

I have not read the book but based on these quotes you presented I won't be.

I have read elder Drysdale's book. Although I disagree with his choice of terms regarding the relationship between the human and divine natures, he is pretty much spot on in regards to the Logos and the Angel of the Presence prior to Bethlehem

[Apostolic1ness]

1. As for the second comment from esaias you have to read the preceding statements. This is response to the belief that God had a beautiful angel form and that angelic for became Jesus.
2.it sounds to me that there is the belief that Jesus' specific image and form was manifest at times in the o.t. and was in heaven before the incarnation. This is what I'm saying is not so.

[Michael The Disciple]

Is would be more accurate to say that God existed as an omnipresent spirit and at times appeared to mankind as an angelic form of a person.

This statement would only be half true. Yes God appeared to mankind as the Angel at times.

But he also had a kingdom of Angelic beings. He was in visual communication with them.

Isaiah 6:1-2

1In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

2 Chronicles 18:18-20

18Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. 19And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. 20Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?

YAH took journeys with Angels.

Gen 18:1-3

1And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant

How do we know the other two were Angels?

Later that night:

1And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

So its obvious that the omnipresent Spirit of YAH had a form and that it was his visual communication with his Angels.

His Angels are in his presence.

Job 1:6-8

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

He had conversations with them. He knew them. They knew him.

This is the form Paul spoke of in Phil. 2:6, John 1:1, and Hebrews 1:3.

The doctrine that God had no form or merely used certain Angels to speak with creation has caused a clouding of understanding among many Oneness believers.

So Apostolic 1 ness, as I said to you in another thread you are good at asking questions. Thats a good thing. Thats how we learn.

But since I have given you abundant scripture as to why I believe what I consider is true Biblical Oneness, along with a 64 minute video by myself teaching, how is it all you have done so far is say I am wrong and dont know Oneness?

Where are the scriptures that will support your belief that God had no spiritual body before Bethlehem? That the Logos was just a "thought" or a "plan"?

How long have you been in Oneness?

[Apostolic1ness]

You are right in most of what you say but not all, yes God communicates with angels they are all spirit not a person, and in the spirit realm I'm sure they see each other and so on. But to say that the spirit form that God has is the form of the Son of God Jesus Christ I can't buy into that one.
Also the scriptures you use to support your belief is not fitting. Lets look
Phil.2:6 is speaking of the man not Preincarnate.
HEB.1:3 speaking of the man not a Preincarnate image.
Jonh 1:1 speaking of the word not a form or image
I'm not sure how you use these scriptures to promote a Preincarnate form or image of the Son
As for how long I've been oneness, since I was born again. That's irrelevant