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  #101  
Old 12-21-2020, 08:44 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: The United States NEEDS to Repent or Die.

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
I have a Master's in History. I think I know what Locke believed. Since he does not call for the theocratic form of government you want, you misrepresent him. This thread is about the USA needing to repent. If you'd like info on Locke and why is natural law theories are Biblically based, I will be happy to send you some.
Appeal to authority and ad hominem. Ergo, non sequitur.

Next?
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  #102  
Old 12-22-2020, 05:57 AM
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Re: The United States NEEDS to Repent or Die.

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Appeal to authority and ad hominem. Ergo, non sequitur.

Next?
Anyone who denies the Biblical influence on Locke's natural law and natural rights theories has basically spat on the very thing that set this nation apart from all nations in history. Take that out of our history and we never even leave the launch pad. You, like the left, are now poo-pooing it.
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  #103  
Old 12-22-2020, 07:13 AM
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Re: The United States NEEDS to Repent or Die.

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
Anyone who denies the Biblical influence on Locke's natural law and natural rights theories has basically spat on the very thing that set this nation apart from all nations in history. Take that out of our history and we never even leave the launch pad. You, like the left, are now poo-pooing it.
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  #104  
Old 12-22-2020, 07:57 AM
aegsm76 aegsm76 is offline
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Re: The United States NEEDS to Repent or Die.

What is the debate about again?
Seems like ya'll are saying the same thing in different manners.
From my reading of Locke (and it has been a while), he tried to take principles in the Bible and extend them to human reasoning.
Which then led others (notably Marx) to extend new beliefs to the opposite of the Bible.
Which seems to always be the case.
As to what happens when we move beyond the Bible for our reasoning or beliefs.
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  #105  
Old 12-22-2020, 08:51 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: The United States NEEDS to Repent or Die.

John Locke: Deist or Theologian?
john-locke-deist-or-theologian-1
JOHN LOCKE
Many law and history professors and uninformed historical writers commonly assert
that John Locke was a secular political writer or a deist. Often, these claims
are made without the logical effort of studying Locke or his writings directly.
(Rather, the views of other writers who wrote about Locke are studied!) If you
have such a professor, or hear such assertions, here are a few helpful questions
that you can use:

Questions About John Locke that Demand An Answer

In 1669, John Locke assisted in the drafting of the Carolina constitution
under which no man could be a citizen unless he acknowledged God, was a member
of a church, and used no “reproachful, reviling, or abusive language”
against any religion. 1‡ How can the constitutional requirement that no one can become
a citizen (1) unless he acknowledges God; (2) be a member of a church; and
(3) not attack religion, be considered a secular political philosophy?
Many of Locke’s political ideas were specifically drawn from British theologian
Richard Hooker (1554-1600), whom Locke quotes heavily in approbation throughout
his own political writings. 2‡ If Locke draws so heavily from (and frequently cites) a theologian
throughout his own political works, how can it be true that his political
philosophies were totally secular?
In his most famous political work, his Two Treatises of Government,
Locke set forth the belief that successful governments could be built only
upon the transcendent, unchanging principles of natural law that were a subset
of God’s law. For example, he declared:
[T]he Law of Nature stands as an eternal rule to all men, legislators
as well as others. The rules that they make for other men’s actions must
. . . be conformable to the Law of Nature, i.e., to the will of God. 3

[L]aws human must be made according to the general laws of Nature, and
without contradiction to any positive law of Scripture, otherwise they
are ill made. 4

‡ How can Locke’s declaration that the laws of legislators
must be conformable “to the will of God” and that human laws cannot
contradict “any positive law of Scripture” be considered part
of a secular political philosophy?

Locke’s Two Treatises of Government were heavily relied upon by the
American Founding Fathers. In fact, signer of the Declaration Richard Henry
Lee declared that the Declaration itself was “copied from Locke’s Treatise
on Government.” 5
Yet so heavily did Locke draw from the Bible in developing his political theories
that in his first treatise on government, he invoked the Bible in one thousand
three hundred and forty nine references; in his second treatise, he cited
it one hundred and fifty seven times.‡ How can so many references to the Bible in Locke’s most famous
political work be reconciled with the charge that his political philosophies
were totally secular?
While many today classify John Locke as a deist, secular thinker, or a forerunner
of deism, 6
previous generations classified John Locke as a theologian. 7‡ How can the charge that Locke’s political philosophies were
totally secular be squared with the fact that he was long considered a theologian?
John Locke’s many writings included a verse-by-verse commentary on Paul’s
Epistles. He also compiled a topical Bible, which he called a Common Place-Book
to the Holy Bible, that listed the verses in the Bible, subject by subject.
Then when anti-religious enlightenment thinkers attacked Christianity, Locke
defended it in his book, The Reasonableness of Christianity as Delivered
in the Scriptures. And then when he was attacked for defending Christianity
in that first work, he responded with the work, A Vindication of the Reasonableness
of Christianity. Still being attacked two years later, Locke wrote, A
Second Vindication of the Reasonableness of Christianity. 8
No wonder he was considered a theologian by his peers and by subsequent generations!‡ How can a theologian who wrote so many books on the writings
and doctrines of the Bible and Christianity (and who frequently cited the
Scriptures in his political writings) also be a writer whose political philosophies
were totally secular?
Significantly, when during the Founding Era it was charged that Locke was
a secular writer, it drew a sharp response from law professor James Wilson
– a signer of the Constitution and an original Justice on the U. S. Supreme
Court. Wilson declared:
I am equally far from believing that Mr. Locke was a friend to infidelity
[a disbelief in the Bible and in Christianity 9].
. . . The high reputation which he deservedly acquired for his enlightened
attachment to the mild and tolerating doctrines of Christianity secured
to him the esteem and confidence of those who were its friends. The same
high and deserved reputation inspired others of very different views and
characters . . . to diffuse a fascinating kind of lustre over their own
tenets of a dark and sable hue. The consequence has been that the writings
of Mr. Locke, one of the most able, most sincere, and most amiable assertors
of Christianity and true philosophy, have been perverted to purposes which
he would have deprecated and prevented [disapproved and opposed] had he
discovered or foreseen them. 10

‡ How can the charge that political philosophies were totally
secular be explained with the claim by such a prominent legal authorities
that Locke was “one of the most able, most sincere, and most amiable
assertors of Christianity”?
https://wallbuilders.com/john-locke-deist-theologian/
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  #106  
Old 12-22-2020, 08:52 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
One Thing-Phil 3:13-14


 
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Re: The United States NEEDS to Repent or Die.

Duplicate post

Last edited by Amanah; 12-22-2020 at 09:40 AM.
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  #107  
Old 12-22-2020, 09:27 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: The United States NEEDS to Repent or Die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
What is the debate about again?
Seems like ya'll are saying the same thing in different manners.
From my reading of Locke (and it has been a while), he tried to take principles in the Bible and extend them to human reasoning.
Which then led others (notably Marx) to extend new beliefs to the opposite of the Bible.
Which seems to always be the case.
As to what happens when we move beyond the Bible for our reasoning or beliefs.
Locke made the same fundamental mistake as Abelard and Aquinas and the other scholastics (possibly excepting Anselm), which is they attempted to reinterpret Scripture in conformity with Graeco-Roman philosophy.

Locke certainly operated within the cultural bounds of his day. I have no doubt he believed himself a bona fide Christian and that he was doing God's work.

But the proof is in the pudding.

Locke, Grotius, and other Enlightenment philosophers laid the foundation for humanism, getting further and further away from Divine Revelation, until we wind up where we are today: a godless, Christless society whose basis of jurisprudence and ethics has abandoned any reliance on God and His Word. The quotes I gave from Locke are a clear example and demonstration of the fatal flaw in his philosophy of government. He begins with assuming as true something that is completely untrue, and the rest is history. Literally.
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  #108  
Old 12-22-2020, 09:34 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: The United States NEEDS to Repent or Die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
Anyone who denies the Biblical influence on Locke's natural law and natural rights theories has basically spat on the very thing that set this nation apart from all nations in history. Take that out of our history and we never even leave the launch pad. You, like the left, are now poo-pooing it.
I never denied Locke's theories weren't influenced by Scripture and the Christian tradition. You can't seem to carry on a dialogue with anyone who holds to a different view than your own. And you apparently can't even identify what an opposing viewpoint is, much less mount any kind of cogent response to it.

Let me ask you one simple question. You don't even have to answer it on the forum. Just ask YOURSELF the following:

If we threw Locke, the Federalists, the Declaration of Independence, yea even the Constitution all in the trash and forgot all about them, and were left with NOTHING but the Holy Bible and faith in Christ, would we be without clear and uncertain direction?
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  #109  
Old 12-22-2020, 09:37 AM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: The United States NEEDS to Repent or Die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Locke made the same fundamental mistake as Abelard and Aquinas and the other scholastics (possibly excepting Anselm), which is they attempted to reinterpret Scripture in conformity with Graeco-Roman philosophy.

Locke certainly operated within the cultural bounds of his day. I have no doubt he believed himself a bona fide Christian and that he was doing God's work.

But the proof is in the pudding.

Locke, Grotius, and other Enlightenment philosophers laid the foundation for humanism, getting further and further away from Divine Revelation, until we wind up where we are today: a godless, Christless society whose basis of jurisprudence and ethics has abandoned any reliance on God and His Word. The quotes I gave from Locke are a clear example and demonstration of the fatal flaw in his philosophy of government. He begins with assuming as true something that is completely untrue, and the rest is history. Literally.
Hey brother can I use this and send it to the church family?
Very good.
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  #110  
Old 12-22-2020, 09:38 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: The United States NEEDS to Repent or Die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
Anyone who denies the Biblical influence on Locke's natural law and natural rights theories has basically spat on the very thing that set this nation apart from all nations in history. Take that out of our history and we never even leave the launch pad. You, like the left, are now poo-pooing it.
Notice, those who have been conditioned by humanist thinking and paradigms can't contemplate that God Almighty is the very "thing" that set this nation apart from all others.

He that glories, let him glory IN THE LORD. Not Locke, Jefferson, Paine, or even my old friend Patrick Henry.
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