From The Perspective of a Conservative

[stmatthew]

I thought this would be interesting to see how those that are conservative see the Apostolic movement in 2008. Please allow some conservative folks to answer before discussing what they say.




Where do you see the Apostolic movement (UPCI, ALJC, AMF, and the likes.) at this point?

What do you see as problems within it?

What are the strengths of todays movement?

Where do you think we are headed as a movement?

What is your advise to the generation that is to follow us.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I thought this would be interesting to see how those that are conservative see the Apostolic movement in 2008. Please allow some conservative folks to answer before discussing what they say.




Where do you see the Apostolic movement (UPCI, ALJC, AMF, and the likes.) at this point?

What do you see as problems within it?

What are the strengths of todays movement?

Where do you think we are headed as a movement?

What is your advise to the generation that is to follow us.

I think the major development in the conservative movement is that most are seeing organization as we have known it through the years is outdated and obsolete and probably divides more than it unites. I think organizational walls like the Berlin walls have been torn down and good men will never allow them to be erected again to the extent of including or excluding a preacher who preaches a good message and has a clean life. The message-man-ethics will now determine fellowship and not a card. That is my take.

[Apprehended]

Except for the obvious materialism among us, the Apostolic movement is on the brink of the greatest move of God since the book of Acts...though it may not be known as what we have heretofore called "Apostolic." Labels are soon to lose all meaning. There are good men and women that are generally very unknown, who are spending a great amount of time in deep prayer, searching for and seeking after God. God has given them eyes to see what is upon us and are reporting that business-as-usual is about to come to an end. God is about to put the whole world in a position that will cause MILLIONS to seek Him with their whole hearts. These prepared men who have spent endless hours in their prayer closets consulting with, having communion with, having friendship with God who rules in the affairs of men, are going to be used in such a supernatial manner that it will astound the world as they see the glory and power of God upon them. Critcal mass has been building for quite some time. When the dam breaks, the glory and power of God is going to sweep the earth attracting the attention of the whole world.

The egotist, the prayerless, the politicians, the most favored of men are going to be bypassed, set aside and will be amazed at the humble "no-bodies" that God is going to raise up and set before the whole world with His Word in their mouths as great flames of fire.

It is my opinion that it will be the last three and half of the seven years of the Christ ministry.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I think the major development in the conservative movement is that most are seeing organization as we have known it through the years is outdated and obsolete and probably divides more than it unites. I think organizational walls like the Berlin walls have been torn down and good men will never allow them to be erected again to the extent of including or excluding a preacher who preaches a good message and has a clean life. The message-man-ethics will now determine fellowship and not a card. That is my take.

I'm sure that I wouldn't be labeled a conservative but I believe everything you say in this post. Good words!
Raven

[Raven]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Except for the obvious materialism among us, the Apostolic movement is on the brink of the greatest move of God since the book of Acts...though it may not be known as what we have heretofore called "Apostolic." Labels are soon to lose all meaning. There are good men and women that are generally very unknown, who are spending a great amount of time in deep prayer, searching for and seeking after God. God has given them eyes to see what is upon us and are reporting that business-as-usual is about to come to an end. God is about to put the whole world in a position that will cause MILLIONS to seek Him with their whole hearts. These prepared men who have spent endless hours in their prayer closets consulting with, having communion with, having friendship with God who rules in the affairs of men, are going to be used in such a supernatial manner that it will astound the world as they see the glory and power of God upon them. Critcal mass has been building for quite some time. When the dam breaks, the glory and power of God is going to sweep the earth attracting the attention of the whole world.

The egotist, the prayerless, the politicians, the most favored of men are going to be bypassed, set aside and will be amazed at the humble "no-bodies" that God is going to raise up and set before the whole world with His Word in their mouths as great flames of fire.

It is my opinion that it will be the last three and half of the seven years of the Christ ministry.

Amen my friend! I like this post also. Insight that had to come from much prayer.
Raven

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Except for the obvious materialism among us, the Apostolic movement is on the brink of the greatest move of God since the book of Acts...though it may not be known as what we have heretofore called "Apostolic." Labels are soon to lose all meaning. There are good men and women that are generally very unknown, who are spending a great amount of time in deep prayer, searching for and seeking after God. God has given them eyes to see what is upon us and are reporting that business-as-usual is about to come to an end. God is about to put the whole world in a position that will cause MILLIONS to seek Him with their whole hearts. These prepared men who have spent endless hours in their prayer closets consulting with, having communion with, having friendship with God who rules in the affairs of men, are going to be used in such a supernatial manner that it will astound the world as they see the glory and power of God upon them. Critcal mass has been building for quite some time. When the dam breaks, the glory and power of God is going to sweep the earth attracting the attention of the whole world.

The egotist, the prayerless, the politicians, the most favored of men are going to be bypassed, set aside and will be amazed at the humble "no-bodies" that God is going to raise up and set before the whole world with His Word in their mouths as great flames of fire.

It is my opinion that it will be the last three and half of the seven years of the Christ ministry.

A woman came to my church the last two Sundays. She's a Trinitarian Pentecostal. She spoke of a dream the Lord gave her of her riding a bicycle through the area where our church is located and a great fast moving river of water flooded everything in the surrounding areas. She rode her bike through the waters. She recognized the water as the Holy Spirit and spoke all of this to our congregation. Then she mentioned that people would know what was about to happen was a work of God and not man.

Our congregation is a bunch of nobodies. This move of His Spirit is something that was told to me in a message by interpretation of tongues years ago in another country and was told to my pastor years ago by different prophets. We as a fellowship have been in the wilderness on the back side of the desert for a long time. It has made us thirsty for a drink of water and not just a drink but a downpour.....the latter rain is about to fall. And we don't mind a Trinitarian confirming God's promise to us!

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

A woman came to my church the last two Sundays. She's a Trinitarian Pentecostal. She spoke of a dream the Lord gave her of her riding a bicycle through the area where our church is located and a great fast moving river of water flooded everything in the surrounding areas. She rode her bike through the waters. She recognized the water as the Holy Spirit and spoke all of this to our congregation. Then she mentioned that people would know what was about to happen was a work of God and not man.

Our congregation is a bunch of nobodies. This move of His Spirit is something that was told to me in a message by interpretation of tongues years ago in another country and was told to my pastor years ago by different prophets. We as a fellowship have been in the wilderness on the back side of the desert for a long time. It has made us thirsty for a drink of water and not just a drink but a downpour.....the latter rain is about to fall. And we don't mind a Trinitarian confirming God's promise to us!

God is sending forth a witness of his Word and work in this the last days. The thirst that you speak of is building. The world is thirsty but cannot account of that thirst...turning to drugs, Hollywood, sex, pleasures of the world or just about anything in a frustrated attempt to appease that driving thirst.

Like I said above, the pressure on the dam is building. When the world through the men, the nobodies that God is about to raise up with his glory and power is seen by the world, they will begin to turn to Him with their whole hearts by the millions. The thirst will grow until they will become violent. The kingdom of God suffereth violence; the violent take it by force. A big man might deny a dying woman and her baby a drink from a spring in the desert, but when the thirst in the woman and her baby gets so great, regardless how small she may be, she will fight the biggest of men. The devil will deny the thirsty a drink, but not forever.

The knowledge and glory of the Lord will cover the earth as waters cover the land. The nobodies in your church are not going to boast about the all nights of prayer and the days of fasting that they have been seeking after God. No body are going to recognize the nobodies until it is God's time at the breaking of the dam. They are quitely hearing though you may never know it.

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Where do you see the Apostolic movement (UPCI, ALJC, AMF, and the likes.) at this point?

From my perspective as a concerned, conservative parent that is marginally involved and marginally connected, (whew!) I observe things like the magic hair testimony in the Herald and the series of letters, authored by headquarters heavy-hitters, that tell us there's no cause for alarm, just a handful of people have turned in their cards, etcetera, and I get an image of the UPC as a Roman galley riding high on a sandbar, and everybody inside is just pulling and pulling and pulling as hard as ever stirring up the quicksand outside with their oars because they can't see outside the ship. The UPC ship has run aground, and pieces are breaking off. Closing our eyes and banging on kettles won't change the situation.

I don't see that the average UPC parishoner has more than a marginal awareness that such things as the AMF, ALJC, Axxx, Ayyy, and Azzz even exist. People are busy with their own lives, and struggle to fit in the time demands of just their ONE church, much less anybody else's.

Some say (mostly here) that the UPC has become little more than a culture club, a miniature civilization within a civilization, with its own self-serving royal court, royal families, arranged marriages, political subterfuge, and nepotism. I catch glimpses of things that might hint at the existence of such a fanciful construct, but I suspect the reality is somewhere in the middle.

What do you see as problems within it?

Continual inflation of our growth numbers. Exaggerative testimonials of revival here and abroad. Countless other ways and means of lulling ourselves into a sense of complacency that the UPC is still everything it once was and requires no tinkering, whether it be minor adjustment or major overhaul.

Lack of enforcement of the licensing requirements. The extension of grace, by conservatives, to those that one way or another were making an end-run around the spirit of the rules. Rather than boot them out so they could "pursue their interests," the problem has festered and grown from a movement to a majority. Now the very people who were concerned about the influence of TV on ministers, but were afraid that to say something would be to appear hard-nosed, now appear hard-nosed as they drop out. Selective enforcement of rules brings trouble to everyone, eventually. Leniency to those who are "liberal" with the rules has never, in any context, been a proven winning strategy.

And the drop-outs will skew the "average" on our ministerial "political" spectrum more towards the liberal side.

Running church as a business.
Following "church growth" paradigms instead of the Spirit.
Platform and payroll double standards for family.
Nepotism large and small.
Considering the role of pastor to be the role of OT priests.
Widespread membership ignorance of fundamental UPC doctrines and the bases behind them.
Widespread membership ignorance of the scriptural principles corraborating some of our "cultural" peculiarities.
Certain key texts by UPC authors on various doctrinal subjects rely on quirks in the KJV translation. Our movement will continue to suffer a doctrinal debating disadvantage until we have a bullet-proof translation of our own.

What are the strengths of todays movement?

For all our fractiousness, we're still fairly unified, especially on foreign missions.
We've got some good momentum.
We have good bible colleges.
We have many, many churches that have regular moves of the Holy Ghost. We have some wise leadership. We may still be capable of achieving a biblical paradigm and finding God's will.

Where do you think we are headed as a movement?

I think the "upheaval" we are presently experiencing are merely the tremors of we Apostolics-in-a-can being fastened good and tight into God's giant paint shaker. There are some bumps and bruises, some oohs and aahs, but the silly thing hasn't even been powered on yet.

What is your advise to the generation that is to follow us.

Pull up your pants and get a haircut!

But seriously, I would advise anybody who believes that there is a call of God upon their life to get serious about it. If it's really God you won't have to wait until uncle or daddy or grandpa makes room for you on the "ministerial team." You can simply go to some little town that doesn't have a Oneness presence and be friendly to people until an opportunity to teach a bible study arises.

[Thinking]

Thank you, OP Carl.

[AGAPE]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I thought this would be interesting to see how those that are conservative see the Apostolic movement in 2008. Please allow some conservative folks to answer before discussing what they say.




Where do you see the Apostolic movement (UPCI, ALJC, AMF, and the likes.) at this point?

(At a crossroads...choose you this day whom you will serve, but as for me and my house we will serve the LORD. Missions wise the Apostolic Movement is doing better than ever before (thanks in a large part to IAM)

What do you see as problems within it?
My camp, your camp, and their camp! We must rally around the message! The Atonement (CROSS), The New Birth (Acts 2:38) and The New Life (Holiness within and without)

What are the strengths of todays movement?
The old org lines are gone for the most part...AMF,UPC,ALJC conservatives all coming together, think AMC

Where do you think we are headed as a movement?
I hate to say this but, LAODECIA (sp) but there is a wheel in a wheel, so some will be Philadelphia

What is your advise to the generation that is to follow us.

Search for the Old Paths wherein you may find rest and WALK in them


my comments in red