Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > The Library > Apostolic Articles
Facebook

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 12-06-2017, 08:10 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Happily "off the chain"


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 14,545
Re: The Son of Man

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarieA27 View Post
Isn’t the “Ancient of Days” just another one of God’s titles? Like Melchizedek?
The Ancient of Days means "God". Melchizedek was a priest in Abraham's time who serves as the pattern for Christ's priesthood.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!

Instead of google, use www.yandex.com


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - http://www.robertwr.com/

Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-07-2017, 02:10 AM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Happily "off the chain"


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 14,545
Re: The Son of Man

Therefore the term "coming of the Lord" is a reference to a TYPE of event and NOT to a specific occurrence of an event.


Some Biblical proof of the assertion:
The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see. Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles. I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness. The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle. They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land. Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished. Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it. Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
(Isaiah 13:1-19)
Here, God pronounces the downfall of Babylon at the hands of the Medes. The event is called "the day of the Lord", filled with His "wrath and indignation". The coming of the Medes with their armies is said to be the coming of the Lord Himself: "They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land." Cosmic disturbances are spoken of: the sun, moon, and stars being darkened and put out. The heavens would be shaken, the earth moved out of its place (as in a global earthquake).

This is language used in Scripture concerning the destruction of the Babylonian empire at the hand of the Medes, not the "second coming" or the end of the world. Also, it should be noted that this day of the Lord was said to be "at hand". Isaiah gave this prophecy approximately 250 years before Babylon fell to the Medes, yet it was "at hand" when the prophecy was spoken.
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom. And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards. And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts.
(Isaiah 19:1-4)
Here is a prophecy against Egypt which was fulfilled when that country was torn apart by civil war, resulting in twelve kingdoms (known historically as the "Dodekarchy"). This took place in 695 BC. The Egyptians rose up against their Ethiopian overlords, overthrew them, and dissolved the kingdom into civil war between 12 smaller kingdoms that arose. Eventually, the war was resolved by the rise to power of Psammeticus in 670 BC, the ruler of Sais (one of the 12 kingdoms), who conquered the rest and forged them back into a single monarchy. His son, Pharoah Necho, soon established himself as the "cruel lord" with his plan to build a canal in the Suez region: "Necho (616-597), the son and successor of Psammetichus, renewed the project of Ramses-Miamun, to construct a Suez canal, and tore away 120,000 of the natives of the land from their homes, sending them to wear out their lives in forced labour of the most wearisome kind. A revolt on the part of the native troops, who had been sent against the rising Cyrene, and driven back into the desert, led to the overthrow of Hophra, the grandson of Necho (570), and put an end to the hateful government of the family of Psammetichus." - Keil and Delitzsch Commentary.

Yet, in this prophecy concerning Egypt which came to pass in the early 7th century BC, it is described as a coming of the Lord upon the clouds.


The word of the LORD that came to Micah the Morasthite in the days of Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, which he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem. Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the Lord from his holy temple. For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth. And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place. For the transgression of Jacob is all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? is it not Samaria? and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem? Therefore I will make Samaria as an heap of the field, and as plantings of a vineyard: and I will pour down the stones thereof into the valley, and I will discover the foundations thereof.
(Micah 1:1-6)
Here, doom is prophesied against both Samaria and Jerusalem. Samaria was destroyed by Assyria in 722 BC (I believe, I might be off by a year or so), and Jerusalem later in the 600s by Babylon. Yet, the prophesied destruction of the two cities is described as the Lord "coming out of His place... coming down to earth... treading upon the mountains... which will be melted..."

In other words, the concept of the Lord "coming" is clearly used in the Old Testament as a descriptive term for God visiting , usually in judgment against nations and cities. The point being, there is clearly more than one "coming of the Lord".
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!

Instead of google, use www.yandex.com


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - http://www.robertwr.com/

Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-07-2017, 02:25 AM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Happily "off the chain"


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 14,545
Re: The Son of Man

Now for some New Testament examples:
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
(Revelation 2:1-5)
Here, a threatened "coming of the Lord" is clearly a reference to a visitation of judgment against a church caught up in errors and backsliding. It is not that the second coming would take place, but that the Lord would "come" and remove the church from it's position as one of His churches. Again, the "coming of the Lord" is a term or concept referencing a visitation in judgment.
And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
(Revelation 2:12-16)
Again, we see the same thing: a wayward church that refused to repent would suffer a "coming of the Lord" in judgment. Notice, that in these two New Testament examples, the predicted comings of the Lord are CONDITIONAL. They are conditioned upon the spiritual condition of the respective churches, whether they would repent or not.
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(Revelation 3:1-3)
Again, a conditional, threatened "coming of the Lord", this time with "thief in the night" language.

So far, we have seen no less than three "comings of the Lord" in the Old Testament, and another three just in the book of Revelation alone. In each of these cases, the coming of the Lord was a prophetic, descriptive term for a visitation of Divine judgment upon nations or churches or the unrepentant ones within certain churches.

But the coming of the Lord is not limited to instances of Divine judgment or punishment, as in this Old Testament prophecy:
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
(Malachi 3:1-6)
Here, the arrival of Christ is prophesied as a coming of the Lord, indeed as a coming that involved judgment. But not in the execution of punishment! He was to come near in judgment and be a WITNESS against sin and sinners. We know that when Christ came, He came and bore witness of the truth against the ungodliness of the world, yet He did not come to execute vengeance upon them, but to save them from their sins. So here we see a coming of the Lord that, while it includes the idea of judgment, it is focused on MERCY. It is the arrival of the King. Once He arrives, and bears witness against sin, then (having been established as King and "the messenger of the covenant") He is able to execute judgment against His enemies.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!

Instead of google, use www.yandex.com


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - http://www.robertwr.com/

Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-07-2017, 02:37 AM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Happily "off the chain"


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 14,545
Re: The Son of Man

One more New Testament prophecy concerning the coming of the Lord:
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
(John 14:1-23)
Make sure you read the whole passage to get the fuller understanding. Jesus is saying He is going away, but will come again. He clarifies this by declaring He would not leave them "comfortless", but would "come" to them. He just got done talking about the Comforter (the Holy Ghost). So then He would "come unto them" via the Holy Ghost. In fact, he declares that those who keep His words will be loved by Him and the Father, and both of them would "come" and dwell with His followers.

Now, this is clearly speaking about the Lord "coming". It is a "coming of the Lord", but not the "second advent". It is also not the "comings" we have seen earlier, either. This coming is not a coming to execute judgment. It is a coming to bring "comfort" and prevent the disciples from being orphans or "fatherless" (the meaning of the term "comfortless" according to the Greek). This obviously was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, but it continues to occur whenever a believer loves Jesus and keeps His words, receives the Holy Ghost, and abides in Christ. the Lord is said to "come" to such a one, indeed the Father Himself is said to come to such a one. Meaning of course that such a person receives a "coming of the Lord" that brings the fullness of God Himself into their life, for "he who has the Son has the Father also".

So, the idea of the "coming of the Lord" has several meanings according to the Bible. It can be a temporal judgment executed against a nation or city, it can be a judgment executed against a church or the wayward members of a church, or it can be a visitation in mercy of the Spirit of Christ to those who follow Him and believe in Him. None of these comings of the Lord involve what is commonly known as the "second coming". And none of these comings we have looked at involve the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem, either!

Was the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 a "coming of the Lord"? Sure it was. Will the return of Jesus to resurrect the saints and destroy the man of sin be a "coming of the Lord"? Certainly. But, as we have seen, the term "coming of the Lord" is not a term that always and only refers to one event. Rather, it refers to a type of event. Several types of events, in fact.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!

Instead of google, use www.yandex.com


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - http://www.robertwr.com/

Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-13-2017, 04:20 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Happily "off the chain"


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 14,545
Re: The Son of Man

Just adding some random thoughts here.

The Son of Man prophecy in Daniel is explicitly interpreted by the angel to refer to the eventual succession of God's saints to power, to "possess the kingdom". Yet Jesus clearly appropriated the imagery of that prophecy to Himself and his ministry. This seems to indicate a definite dual fulfillment.

First, it is fulfilled by Christ as the archetypal Israel. He was victorious over the cosmic (secular, "kosmos" or "world") forces of evil, and ascended to power and was given dominion. He received the kingdom.

Second, it is fulfilled by the saints of the Most High (as the angel declared it would be) who receive the victory and the kingdom via their union with Christ.

The prophecy has a definite temporal flow to it - the persecuting beast power is destroyed, and then the son of Man figure receives the kingdom:

Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
(Daniel 7:19-22)

This clearly places the final victory of the saints AFTER the persecutions of the little horn of the fourth beast. The judgment was given to the saints correlates with the destruction of the beast and the victory of the people of God. since that victory of the people of God correlates with the Son of Man figure approaching the Ancient of Days and receiving the kingdom, then the latter scene of the Son of Man coming to receive the kingdom would be fulfilled upon the destruction of the beast. Or, one may say the two events coincide - the beast is destroyed at least in part by the coming of the Son of Man into the kingdom.

So, there are two layers of fulfillments going on here. Christ first comes into His kingdom after spiritually defeating His enemies, then this spiritual reality unfolds in "reality" when the persecuting power is destroyed and the saints possess the kingdom.

This two-fold aspect appears in many other places as well, and is a common theme in Scripture. For example, Christ destroyed the devil, yet the devil's destruction has not been realised in "real time" yet. It is both now, and not-yet. We have received the kingdom, and are members of that kingdom, yet we still await it's consummation. Again, it is both an "already done yet still to be" event.

Death has been abolished IN CHRIST, and because we are in Christ death shall be abolished in us as well, at the resurrection. Again, it is both a done deal, and a yet-to-be-accomplished reality.

So, Christ's coming in the clouds of heaven has to do with His coming into the kingdom, His accession to power and dominion, which began with the cross and continued through the ascension. It was evidenced or witnessed by the outpouring of the Spirit on Pentecost, the spread of the gospel to both Judean and Greek, and the overthrow of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple (these constitute the "sign of the Son of Man in Heaven", as the evidences of the resurrection of Jesus proving He is indeed the Son of God with power).

Having acceded to power and dominion, this spiritual reality begins to work itself out in history as the historical fulfillment of Daniel 7 takes place. The beast was already defeated at Calvary, but that defeat was not worked out, as it were, in the "down here and now on the earth", at that immediate time. So, we look forward to the time that the beast/little horn is slain and defeated, and the whole dominion is given to the saints of the Most High - Christ having already accomplished this victory for us in the heavens.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!

Instead of google, use www.yandex.com


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - http://www.robertwr.com/


Last edited by Esaias; 12-13-2017 at 04:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-13-2017, 04:24 PM
Amanah's Avatar
Amanah Amanah is online now
I am half-sick of shadows


 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sebastian, FL
Posts: 4,820
Re: The Son of Man

I have been thinking somewhat along these lines myself Esaias.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-13-2017, 04:27 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Happily "off the chain"


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 14,545
Re: The Son of Man

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
I have been thinking somewhat along these lines myself Esaias.
Great minds think alike?

__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!

Instead of google, use www.yandex.com


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - http://www.robertwr.com/

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Jito463
- by Amanah
- by shwnrob
- by Amanah

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.