**** Are the NCO and AWCF "raiding" the UPCI or providing a "safety net"? ****

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

I may have missed it . . . why was TF thrown out of the library? What was he finding that upset or scared Hall and the others to toss him out?

That's what you get to find out because it's not in Fudge's book.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

And why is this the first time I'm hearing about it???

You were never interested in before?

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

If the facts aren't being disputed by Hall and Norris . . .

Where did you find that information? Care to share?

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

what's the argument about? He's said to have a well-documented Bibliography, which could be said for any research book.

How did I respond to that CR? I started this whole discussion by talking about attitude, and then about research. I also said when the FOOTNOTES (not Bibliography...yet) were brought up that one needs to check out those footnotes. Remember that I was speaking of examining the primary sources.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

Is it just that EB doesn't agree with the conclusions that he attacks the credibility and character of TF?

Is that what I said CR? Or is that how you chose to precieve my posts?
Thank you for the invalidation.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

That's what I'm getting from EB's posts. No real substance other than he doesn't like the book.

Well, there you have it folks the voice of discernment has spoken. Thank you sir, may I have another.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

I haven't read the book yet, so I'm not going to defend the book, BUT

The usage of the word BUT kinda negates your first statement and lets see how. Read carefully the below quote.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

I will say that according to what I've read, TF received his information from a lot of different sources. It's not as though he interviewed one embittered, ex-UPC person and used their comments as the basis of his book.

Agenda anyone? The magical conjuction allows you to see what's coming next. Thank you CR, for someone who has never read Fudge's book you sure know it's depth and construction.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

I would agree that the book should be scrutinized; that the sources need be traced and not just accepted w/out question. In the same sense, I would hope EB places the same scrutiny on UPC-approved books and historical accounts written by UPC authors.

CR did you only read what would strengthen an argument because my posts are repeating that proper research is to scrutinize the subject that we are studying.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

It goes both ways. However, I doubt EB places the same litmus test on UPC-authored and approved books as he does on other non-UPC-authored books.

Thank you sir may I have another.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

I still wonder why the UPC Library was closed to TF. Seems they didn't want the scrutiny of someone who wouldn't white-wash or gloss the history over to make it UPC-friendly.

You see CR, the part about Elder Hall closing the door on Thomas Fudge is a fact, and that you can pick up Thomas Fudge's attitude is prevalent in his writings. You on the other hand are taking a speculative jab in which you have no proof.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

Dumb. No one's even hinted this.

How about alluded to it.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

Every writer has an agenda. If not, why write a book? Seriously . . . what moron would write a book without thinking it through to the books conclusion. Without knowing what the purpose, or agenda, of the book was?

You're correct CR, but some preach a Christ of Contention and the other of Love. Not all agendas are seeking a fair view. So that's why I ask for further research into the matter. Study out the material, come up with the balanced conclusion.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

Any books from other sources other than the Forward, the Pentecostal Herald and PPH? I think most would agree that these sources would be decidedly biased in their opinions and views and would not be a good source of critical reasoning or examinations into the history of the UPC. I guarantee you most of what's put out by HQ is done so with a positive spin, if nothing more than to "keep unity."

UPCI and Thomas Fudge are not the only ones who have ever written books on Pentecostalism.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

Unfortunately I've wasted about 30 minutes going over all the posts I've missed since last night .

Well, then I hope that taught you a lesson, now I guess you will be taking a month long hiatus?

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

. . and I'll say again -

Why?

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

No one is suggesting that TF's book is total truth or infallible;

Although they have alluded to it.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

No one is even suggesting TF is right in his conclusions (re-read the posts - can't find it);

Although that has been alluded to.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

EB continues to question and belittle TF's character and writings - with no substantive reason other than he doesn't like TF's conclusions

I brought up Leo Tolstoy and how by learning about the writer I was able to get more understanding of his work.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

EB seems to take what's written by UPC-friendly authors without the "white-hot light of scrutiny" he demands for non-UPC-friendly authors.

So I guess someone can read for 30 minutes and come up with the wrong information? What you said is not true. Thank you for proving my point.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

I'll be getting both books: "Christianity without the Cross," and "United We Stand," to look a little more into this.

Lord bless you and good reading.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by rrford

He graduated from JCM as did I.

The difference is that we were required to read "United We Stand" and were also taught about the PCI/PAJC in Church history II.

Chalk up one more Pentecostal who was taught history.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by CC1

EB,

My humble apologies. Obviously in the world of the UPC 3 pages must constitute an exhaustive examination and study of the PCI view and its history in the org. I should have realized that.

Apology accepted it's also obvious when someone hasn't read something for 30 years and there recall is no longer total, that three pages can be more than they can handle.

Love you Bro!

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Trouvere]

Fudge........chocolate or peanut butter?
maybe Elmer Fudge????

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Fudge's book is by no means infallible, and no one is suggesting that it is. However, it is the first widely disseminated book that has given the PCI view any kind of visibility. And from the PCI view I believe it is a very reasonable and fair presentation. Having said all of that, the book is still Fudge's experience and research and his point of view, so to denigrate his work is completely unfair.

CJ, I didn't do that, I said further research should be applied to the book.

Originally Posted by crakjak

Further, it is understandable the Fudge was very unhappy that Hazelwood closed their doors to him.

Fair.

Originally Posted by crakjak

And it ridiculous for HQ to have done so, they would have been much better served to have graciously given him totally access.

Although we cannot judge their actions because we don't know what transpired at Hazelwood.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Trouvere

Fudge........chocolate or peanut butter?
maybe Elmer Fudge????

I think we are way off topic now?

Pastor Kenneth Phillips, Brother Suber, Elder Teklemarian Gezahagne, and the AWCF.

[Sam]

JCM is the old PBI, isn't it?

I only went to one year of Bible School. That was the 1956/1957 year at the Apostolic Bible Institute in St. Paul, MN.

That was a long time ago. At that time there was a Bible School in Stockton, CA; one in Portland, OR; one in Tulsa, OK; one in Tupelo, MS; and one in St. Paul, MN that I was aware of. I didn't know much about any of them or the one in San Antonio, TX. I lived in Wisconsin and my pastor, Lester Thompson, had gone to ABI. Also, those other places seemed so far off. I had considered going to Moody Bible Institute in Chicago but the man who baptized me in Jesus' name, L.R. Mitchell, told me all they had to offer there was a bunch of chaff.

After I'd been at A.B.I. for a while I got the impression that Bro. Norris' school in St. Paul was the most sound in the doctrine; Bro. Williams' school in Tulsa just taught about how wedding rings and Coca Cola were sinful (RC Cola was allowed though) and sleeves had to come to the wrist; and Bro. Soper's school in Tupelo was weak on doctrine. I'm not saying that is an accurate assessment. That's the feeling I got from kids there.

[Trouvere]

Naw much more fun to talk about Elmer and his bad gun......silly wabbit.

[rrford]

Originally Posted by Sam

JCM is the old PBI, isn't it?

I only went to one year of Bible School. That was the 1956/1957 year at the Apostolic Bible Institute in St. Paul, MN.

That was a long time ago. At that time there was a Bible School in Stockton, CA; one in Portland, OR; one in Tulsa, OK; one in Tupelo, MS; and one in St. Paul, MN that I was aware of. I didn't know much about any of them or the one in San Antonio, TX. I lived in Wisconsin and my pastor, Lester Thompson, had gone to ABI. Also, those other places seemed so far off. I had considered going to Moody Bible Institute in Chicago but the man who baptized me in Jesus' name, L.R. Mitchell, told me all they had to offer there was a bunch of chaff.

After I'd been at A.B.I. for a while I got the impression that Bro. Norris' school in St. Paul was the most sound in the doctrine; Bro. Williams' school in Tulsa just taught about how wedding rings and Coca Cola were sinful (RC Cola was allowed though) and sleeves had to come to the wrist; and Bro. Soper's school in Tupelo was weak on doctrine. I'm not saying that is an accurate assessment. That's the feeling I got from kids there.

I think anyone who has attended a BC feels theiss was the most sound doctrinally. Goes with the territory.

For instance, we heard for years how ABI was not in support of the Gifts of the Spirit being at work in the church. Not saying that was true either...

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by revrandy

What I don't understand is how Tekle could be counted as he believe's a false doctrine? or does that not matter any more?

The men who founded the AWCF preached false doctrine.