To Beard or Not to Beard, That is The Question

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Thank you Esaias for these good questions. As I’m sure you know, we DO have scriptural guidelines. There are at least three instances in the Bible where we are forbidden to add to or diminish from God’s word. One such time (in Revelation) assures us that the consequence of doing so is the removal of our name from the Book of Life. So it is very serious. According to the Bible, not my opinion.

In addition we have Paul who praised the Berean saints as more noble than the saints at Thessalonica for studying the scripture to “ see whether these things be so”. Many pastors would call rebellion, what Paul called noble.

Even the Old Testament in the Book of Proverbs advises us to be prudent. A simple man believes everything but a prudent man . . .

Proverbs 14:15

The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

Of course I realize that debate has at least two sides. So I would like for someone to post scripture saying it’s okay for a pastor to make it up, and pretend that scripture gives him authority up do so.

There isn’t scripture for anyone to make anything up. It would be putting words in God’s mouth. That is the whole issue about adding or subtracting. Hence the book of the Revelation has its dire warning against adding or taking away from its important information. We aren’t allowed to formulate our own personal religion. But shaving or growing a beard because your group likes it that way, without blaming it all on God, then who is to call foul?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Antichrist actually means to be in His place. Positional more than opposing. William Marion Branham never ordered mass suicide, neither did the Rebbe Mendel Schneerson. Yet, both William Branham and Mendel Schneerson never ordered anyone to put them into a position. Never taught lengthy studies on how they were to be obeyed. People do that all on their own. You and I make freewill decisions whether “Biblical” or secular on a vast variety of choices. Yet, there is church government in the New Testament. Paul advocates his own position, also points out to others there own position. John concerning Diotrephes points out his position as someone who could be a stop to a rouge minister. But with Diotrephes he didn’t work alone. No one ever does. To beard or not to beard, or whatever standard you like or dislike, the group accepts or rejects. This isn’t one man controling by himself. He has to have help enforce his goals and ideas. So, guess what? Whether good or bad, the group all file on the plane fly down to Mexico City to get castrated. I have an Pentecostal church down the road from me. This churches pastor believed that the Tribulation was to take place in 2001. So he had the women in the church get sterilized. But this is the thing, not all the women complied. Some did, the so called true believers. Yet, others didn’t do it and are still sitting on the same pews next to their sterilized sisters. Don’t get me wrong, some did actually leave when 2001 came and went. But even Harold Camping’s group didn’t leave him, a good chunk stayed even to this day. But do I blame Harold Camping? Do I blame Pastor Sterilization? Those who teach mandertory bearding or mandertory shaving? No way! It is all on me and you. What we allow or disallow. In Nuremberg Germany at the end of WWII. Nazi officers were placed on trial. Death penalty for some. But their plea was they were following orders. That defense wasn’t a defense. So before we start a campaign to storm the ecclesiastical Bastille. We must remember before we go to liberate the prisioners. They have a huge part in their own captivity. Again, me shaving ever since I set a foot in an Apostolic church never caused me one issue. So, for me I understand it is all about choice when we get down to the skinny answer. Choice whether to accept, reject, leave, or stay. We still hold the option to vote with our feet. To build idols or take down idols.

There's plenty of truth in this. This is why I have made the case that members of a local congregation are complicit in the idolatry if or whenever someone in the church becomes the lord of that assembly.

Not that it's a wonderful song to ponder, but lines from Sweet Dreams by the Eurythmics comes to mind:

I traveled the world and the seven seas, everybody looking for something. Some of them want to use you. Some of them want to be used by you. Some of them want to abuse you. Some of them want to be abused.

In Jeremiah, God makes it plain that prophets prophesy falsely, the priests bear their rule by their means, and His people LOVE to have it so.

In Hosea, God explains how the priests set their heart on the iniquity of the people because they enjoy getting to eat from all of the sacrificial sin offerings. Basically, they prefer the people to remain in sin so as to continue being well-fed.

It has ever been this way. Ever will be. It's exactly what the Lord Jesus faced daily, trying to save out from underneath the thumb those being ruled by the Pharisees. Why did He bother trying? Many, perhaps most didn't listen or care. They eventually called for His crucifixion and got what they wanted. Yet, Jesus made the effort.

The church is commissioned to preach the Gospel to every creature and in so doing, trust God to add to the church daily. Every attempt made at evangelism is an attempt to win someone otherwise underneath the thumb of the Wicked One. Even in the face of turmoil, persecution, indifference, or conflict. But we still try, because the call to save is greater than the problems created by the call.

The same is true within the church, among the religious. Just because some people "love to have it so" doesn't mean no one should try to be a messenger to them to come out of the mess they are in. They may heed and find the truth and get right with God, or call for your crucifixion, but it's all worth it in the end, either way.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Sometimes it is supported by good reasoning. Most of the time it has verses peppered throughout. Yet, it is group supported and group ENFORCED.
Going Biblical or Religious is not complex, it is elders introduced and it is group enforced. Whether it is sound or whether it is utter madness.

I understand that. But pretend you are a young soon-to-be pastor-in-training. The elder(s) have taught you Scripture, and you have been helped along in developing your call to shepherd the flock. And they said to you "Now here is how you make rules and regulations and standards for the flock to follow that aren't written in the Word, and here is how you help to make sure you don't go off the rails." What exactly would you have been taught in that regard?

And the flock, how are they to judge these pastoral guidelines as being of God vs not of God? In such a way that their judgment is not mere personal opinion or rebellion?

I havent yet seen a church that took a vote on standards, it is always either the pastor preaches "XYZ" along with "As the pastor I am authorised to set XYZ in place and you are expected to submit." Or else XYZ was in place before the pastor showed up and anyone joining the church family just adapts to "the way we believe and do things here."

I have also encountered a wide spread belief that God ordains pastors to the specific function of making rules that God inspires him to deliver to that specific group of congregants, and failure to obey them is failure to obey God. The idea being essentially that "you need a pastor to be saved because that's his role, to make the decisions in your life about things like how long your sleeves are to be, skirt length, hair up or down, tv vs monitors vs internet vs whatever, no open toed shoes, whether you can move out of town or not, and to vet anything you studied on your own". Not everywhere, or to the same degree, but I have encountered that basic approach in a few places.

But how does a pastor discover he has that prerogative, and what regulates its exercise?

Are we all just flying by the seat of the pastor's pants?

Furthermore,
Did not God legislate Israel's law, and forbad the adding or subtraction to and from that law, and yet also ordained the appointment of elders and judges who were expected to wisely administer that law, and make applications to new circumstances as they arose? And was this function not transferred to the apostles, and beyond them to the presbytery and overseers of the churches?

As is often the case, it seems both sides of the debate might be missing something?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

There isn’t scripture for anyone to make anything up. It would be putting words in God’s mouth. That is the whole issue about adding or subtracting. Hence the book of the Revelation has its dire warning against adding or taking away from its important information. We aren’t allowed to formulate our own personal religion. But shaving or growing a beard because your group likes it that way, without blaming it all on God, then who is to call foul?

EB, it is very seldom so simple. As we are all aware, there are many who restrain qualified men from leadership, simply because they have facial hair. This crosses a line IMO.

In the Old Testament there was a situation where the brazen serpent was used to heal. It is even confirmed in the Bible to be a type of Jesus. I don’t really LIKE the idea of a brazen serpent being a type of Jesus, but it was.

The brazen serpent was even placed in the ark of the covenant to memorialize the miracle of God healing the Israelites from the fiery serpents. So far so good. But the Israelites made an idol out of the brazen serpent. They carried it too far. They began burning incense to it and named it Nehushtan.

King Ahaz destroyed the brazen serpent because the Israelites began to worship it. What was a gift from God was misused by them.

Pastors are a gift from God. We would do well to allow them to minister and hold them accountable to the word of God. If we idolize them (for example esteem their words as equal or even superior to God’s words) we are doing in essence what the Israelites did with the brazen serpent. Worshiping the creature more than the Creator. It cannot end well.



IMHO of course.

[Esaias]

I dont recall the brass serpent being placed in the ark?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I dont recall the brass serpent being placed in the ark?

I think I recall that being the case. I may be wrong. I’ll do some research and get back with you.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

There's plenty of truth in this. This is why I have made the case that members of a local congregation are complicit in the idolatry if or whenever someone in the church becomes the lord of that assembly.

Not that it's a wonderful song to ponder, but lines from Sweet Dreams by the Eurythmics comes to mind:

The song fits, because it is human nature, it is how carnal man corrupts everything to fit his image. It's group think, and walking into it thinking you can change it is silly at times. A church group deep in a teaching that was given to them by their pastor or elders aren't so quick to ditch that teaching. Even if they migrate to your church family. Even if they are visiting. The guy behind the pulpit catches the shots because he is the first in line. But, no one ever considers that MeMaw and PeePaw have been doing it a certain way since A.D. 33. No one is going to change their old time religion. YOU WEARING A NECK TIE!!!! THAT IS CLOTH JEWELRY!!!! But I use to wear a bowtie, I liked my bowtie, (you know what it takes to tie one?) but I preached a revival and the pastor suggested that I no longer wear one. He had a good reason. I thought the reason was good. No mention of God hurling lighting bolts down on my bowtied neck, or that it was carnal sin to wear one. So, from that day I never wore one again. Thank God for Kansas!

But some things are just basic good information on how to conduct yourself in attire. I used to wear black and white wing tip shoes. Boy did some preachers hate them. But I preached in them (still have them, somewhere) but I had a pastor's wife make mention on how the congregation would keep looking at those shoes and I got out from behind the pulpit. It was a distraction. I would only wear them at the home church. But, everyone was use to my shoes ( I thought) until a brother mentioned that they were too flashy. NOT that they were sinful, blah, blah, blah. But they were too much out of the ordinary for the good folks of our group. So away they went. oh, well. But as far as the whole teaching on neck ties being cloth jewelry, (and other weird logic concerning their origin) I ignored. If I go somewhere and a brother has a problem with neck ties, or wrist watches (I never wear a watch) I'll remove it. Because it is the congregation who really has the problem. Also teaching NEW IMPROVED revelation from another man's pulpit. It just doesn't fly well with the group. Preaching through deep deep mud is no fun. Yet, everything is dictated by the group, the elders. The elders teach, the group enforces it among those in the group.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

In Jeremiah, God makes it plain that prophets prophesy falsely, the priests bear their rule by their means, and His people LOVE to have it so.

In Hosea, God explains how the priests set their heart on the iniquity of the people because they enjoy getting to eat from all of the sacrificial sin offerings. Basically, they prefer the people to remain in sin so as to continue being well-fed.

Next time you go to a Chinese restaurant, or walk through an oriental garden. The Buddha statue, did Siddhartha Gautama ever think he would be converted into a water fountain at Fat Wong's? The devotes did all that. While Harold Camping is trying to get down his Metamucil his followers were running around telling everyone the sky is falling. I look at it like this, the holy man is the snowball, the people are the hill, and that snowball gets going it starts growing. Joel Olsteen was groomed by his preacher dad to be a super star. Yet, the people loved it, the package was clean and pristine.
Next we have T.D. Jakes he isn't special, but he didn't make himself. His followers made him who he is today. It is just that simple.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

It has ever been this way. Ever will be. It's exactly what the Lord Jesus faced daily, trying to save out from underneath the thumb those being ruled by the Pharisees. Why did He bother trying? Many, perhaps most didn't listen or care. They eventually called for His crucifixion and got what they wanted. Yet, Jesus made the effort.

Yet, that is the message. If you tell the truth your numbers lower. Jesus' group was pretty small. Yet His issues came from Him telling the righteous they were sinning under the radar. Looking through Christian history it is always about small groups wanting to be Biblical. Reading about speaking in tongues and hanging out in Topeka Kansas tarrying until they started chattering. But Agnes Ozman later on in life denounced her experience and the tongues movement. It didn't stop the movement, but look at it now. Azusa Street sized hoedowns are yearned for, but that was then (which we really don't know what went on in that barn) this is now. Movements, of wanting to get all Biblical, only to become exceedingly religious deadheads

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The church is commissioned to preach the Gospel to every creature and in so doing, trust God to add to the church daily. Every attempt made at evangelism is an attempt to win someone otherwise underneath the thumb of the Wicked One. Even in the face of turmoil, persecution, indifference, or conflict. But we still try, because the call to save is greater than the problems created by the call.

But of course, yet being so Biblical (which isn't bad) only makes your group smaller. Until you take the show on the road, and start gathering others to the movement. But we are in a times of hundreds if not thousands of movements. Christianity has so many heads it is blurring, and all claim they have the truth. Little groups, little tiny micro groups. All saying we are THE truth! They may be, they really may be, but saying you have truth and proving you have truth is totally too different things.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The same is true within the church, among the religious. Just because some people "love to have it so" doesn't mean no one should try to be a messenger to them to come out of the mess they are in. They may heed and find the truth and get right with God, or call for your crucifixion, but it's all worth it in the end, either way.

Bro, we all come out, and we all end up having our conferences in phone booths.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Antichrist actually means to be in His place. Positional more than opposing. William Marion Branham never ordered mass suicide, neither did the Rebbe Mendel Schneerson. Yet, both William Branham and Mendel Schneerson never ordered anyone to put them into a position. Never taught lengthy studies on how they were to be obeyed. People do that all on their own. You and I make freewill decisions whether “Biblical” or secular on a vast variety of choices. Yet, there is church government in the New Testament. Paul advocates his own position, also points out to others there own position. John concerning Diotrephes points out his position as someone who could be a stop to a rouge minister. But with Diotrephes he didn’t work alone. No one ever does. To beard or not to beard, or whatever standard you like or dislike, the group accepts or rejects. This isn’t one man controling by himself. He has to have help enforce his goals and ideas. So, guess what? Whether good or bad, the group all file on the plane fly down to Mexico City to get castrated. I have an Pentecostal church down the road from me. This churches pastor believed that the Tribulation was to take place in 2001. So he had the women in the church get sterilized. But this is the thing, not all the women complied. Some did, the so called true believers. Yet, others didn’t do it and are still sitting on the same pews next to their sterilized sisters. Don’t get me wrong, some did actually leave when 2001 came and went. But even Harold Camping’s group didn’t leave him, a good chunk stayed even to this day. But do I blame Harold Camping? Do I blame Pastor Sterilization? Those who teach mandertory bearding or mandertory shaving? No way! It is all on me and you. What we allow or disallow. In Nuremberg Germany at the end of WWII. Nazi officers were placed on trial. Death penalty for some. But their plea was they were following orders. That defense wasn’t a defense. So before we start a campaign to storm the ecclesiastical Bastille. We must remember before we go to liberate the prisioners. They have a huge part in their own captivity. Again, me shaving ever since I set a foot in an Apostolic church never caused me one issue. So, for me I understand it is all about choice when we get down to the skinny answer. Choice whether to accept, reject, leave, or stay. We still hold the option to vote with our feet. To build idols or take down idols.

Yep...they were just following orders which everyone sneered at and the Milgram Experiment was created to sort of debunk that reasoning...what it ended up showing is that people are highly susceptible to doing horrible things when told to by a man with no authority but a clipboard and a white jacket.


Now that being said...how much more will people follow along when you have someone in a true leadership role claiming to be the mouthpiece of God also taking into account the sense of family and community, love bombing and the highly emotionally charged atmosphere of worship and preaching?


Not everybody can stand up and say no and leave man especially when your "salvation" is on the line...


I know you had a rough life growing up...but your life and the life of those raised "in the church" is apples and oranges.


How much of what you experienced did you feel was moral and right?


Its a huge difference experiencing bad and KNOWING its bad than experiencing bad disguised and masked as good.


You simply had to make a choice between the bad you were raised with and the good you discovered later...while some of us dealt with major crisis of conscience discerning and filtering through our indoctrination to the threat of hell and shunning....

[Michael The Disciple]

Aaron

The church is commissioned to preach the Gospel to every creature and in so doing, trust God to add to the church daily. Every attempt made at evangelism is an attempt to win someone otherwise underneath the thumb of the Wicked One. Even in the face of turmoil, persecution, indifference, or conflict. But we still try, because the call to save is greater than the problems created by the call.

You have put great truth into this thread. This may be my favorite portion.

[Esaias]

Fat Wong's has good Moo Goo Gai Pan, so maybe the Zen guys got it wrong?