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  #51  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:33 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Women Wearing Pants

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Where does it say in the Bible men can’t wear eyeliner or paint their fingernails and toenails? Ancient societies men in the Middle East wore eyeliner as well as the women.
Which passages do you think are best for teaching against makeup (on men and women)?
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  #52  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:54 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Women Wearing Pants

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Originally Posted by Scott Pitta View Post
For me, it is all a matter of hermeneutics. How is Deut. 22:5 interpreted correctly ? How is one verse picked out of a chapter while the rest of the chapter is ignored ? Are believers to obey the Law of Moses or not ? How does the Council of Jerusalem come into play ??
I agree about what you say about hermeneutics. As you allude to, this verse appears in a chapter with a variety of miscellaneous commands that we don't practice. If I recall correctly, v. 5 is the only one that includes the statement that the forbidden practice is detestable to God. That, to me, seems to put it on the moral plane with implications for how we live today. Of course, the verse gives little direct guidance on how to apply the principle. For example, it says nothing about how different men's and women's clothing has to be. In other words, it does not forbid men and women from wearing similar, though distinct, clothing. In one sense, this really isn't an issue; I can't think of any established culture that was or is entirely unisex. Generally there have always been some sort of difference.

Regarding the Jerusalem Council, I think EB is correct in that circumcision appears to have been the main issue--but it was not the only issue. Basically, one Jewish faction was teaching that Gentiles had to in effect become Jews when becoming Christians: “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” As you know, the council said, "No. The following alone is required . . . "

Do you think that, since it was an abomination to God, the principle of v. 5 transcends the Law of Moses and applies to the church as well?
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  #53  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:56 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Women Wearing Pants

By way of reminder, I had mentioned in the original post: "Since Deut 22:5 is ambiguous--i.e., open to more than one interpretation--more verses need to brought into the discussion to establish what Deut 22:5 means."

I think what the discussion has shown so far is that the verse is, in fact, ambiguous. So what other passages would you bring forward to teach that women must not wear pants today.

Thanks for everyone's input.
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  #54  
Old 06-21-2019, 05:51 AM
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Scott Pitta Scott Pitta is offline
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Re: Women Wearing Pants

Deuteronomy 22:5 does have a warning after the rule: “for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this”. ..What does God detest ? ..How is the word “detest” used by other writers of Scripture ? ..Does the word “detest” have a special meaningin Deuteronomy 22:5 ? Moses uses the word detest 17 times in the book of Deuteronomy. ..most of the timeit is used to describe idol worship ..(Deut 7:25, 7:26, 12:31, 13:14, 17:4, 20:18,29:17, 32:16, 27:15). ..Certain animals are detestable to eat (14:3). ..Sacrificing defective animals is detestable (17:1). ..Occultic behavior is detestable (18:9). ..Prostitute earnings used in temple worhsip are detestable (23:18). ..Certain forms ofremarriage are detestable (24:4). ..Dishonest weights and measurers are detestable (27:15).So Moses does not use the word detest to describe clothing or to distinguish between the sexes in any other part of Deuteronomy. ..Deut. 22:5 is unique even for Deuteronomy.Detestable practices were not a unique feature of Hebrew culture. ..Moses wrote thatit was detestable to the Egyptians to eat with Hebrews (Ge. 42:32). ..Hebrews shepards were also detestable to the Egyptians (Ge. 46:34). ..Even Hebrew sacrifices were detestable to the Egyptians (Exodus 8:26).Not all prohibited practices listed in the law of Moses were said to be detestable...The best example of this is can be seen in the giving of the 10 commandments. ..Theword “detest” is not used in Exodus 20 or in Deuteronomy 5. .. Detest is used in Genesis and Exodus ..to describe what is detestable to Egyptians. ..Detest is not used at all in the book of Numbers. ..“Detest” is used frequently in the book of Levitucus. ..It is found there some 20 times. ..It is used in close connection with the words “unclean” and “defile”. ..So if a person touches a detestable animal (Lev. 11:10) he becomes unclean (Lev. 11:24) or “defiled” ..(Lev. 20:25). ..Engaging in prohibited sexual relations are said to be “wicked” ..(Lev. 18:17).Fellowship offerings (Lev. 19:5-8) left to eat on the third day are “impure” and willnot be ..“accepted” (Lev. 19:7). ..Doing so “desecrates what is holy to the Lord” (Lev. 19:8). ....To clarify, “detest” is translated as “wicked” in Lev.18:17 and as “impure” in Lev.19:7.Leviticus give us a better understanding of the word “detest” but it offers no clues about distinguishing between men and women in regard to their clothing...Illumination about Deut. 22:5 will not come from Leviticus even though that is the most likely place it would be found.The historical books mention ..the “detestable” ways of the nations that had come before them (2 Kings 16:3). ..“Detestable” ..is the way certain kings are described:..Ahaz (2 kings 16:3), Manasseh (2 Kings 21:2), and Jehoiakim (2 Chronicles 36:8). ..Solomon build high places for Chemosh, ..the “detestable god of Moab” and forMolech, the “detestable god of the Ammonites” (1 Kings 11:7).Saul’s attack on the Philistine outpost made Israel a “stench” to the Philistines (1Samuel 13:4). ..“Detestable” is similarly translated “repulsive” in 1 Chronicles 21:6,where Joab is not happy about the kings command to take a census of the population of Israel.In his prayer, Ezra ..describes the conditions of the land as “polluted by the corruption of its peoples. ..By their detestable practices they have filled it with their impurity” ..Ezra 9:11. ....
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  #55  
Old 06-21-2019, 05:53 AM
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Scott Pitta Scott Pitta is offline
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Re: Women Wearing Pants

Job is the earliest book of the Bible to be writen. ..“Detestable” is found once in the book that bears his name. ..Job 15:15-16 reads “ If God places no trust in his holy ones, if even the heavens are not pure in his eyes, ..how much less man, who is vileand corrupt, who drinks up evil like water !” .. Detestible is translated “vile” in this passage.In Psalm 14:1, the “fool” say in his heart “There is no God.” ..Fools are “corrupt andtheir deeds are vile; ..there is no one who does good.” ..Detest is translated here “vile”. ..The same concept is repeated in Psalm 53:1. ..In Psalm 88:8, the sons of Korah lament that God has “taken from me my closest friends and have made me repulsive to them.” .. ..Detest is translated “repulsive” here.Strangely, Solomon uses the word “detest” in Proverbs (18 times) almost as often asMoses uses it in Leviticus ( 20 times). ..But Solomon does not make reference to any aspects of the law of Moses. ..Sadly, Solomon does not shed wisdom on Moses’statement in Deut. 22:5.A comparrison of Leviticus 19 to Proverbs 6 is of value.Leviticus 19 Proverbs 619:1 lying lips .. .. .. .. ..6:1719:11 false witness 6:1919:15 .. .. .. .. pervert justice 6:1719:16 ..slander 6:19Certain themes are to be noted between the 2 chapters. ..But no such comparison canbe made between Proverbs chapter 6 and Deuteronomy chapter 22...Isaiah compares “meaningless offerings” to “detestable incense” (1:13). ..Babylon is called a “rejected” branch in 14:19. ..He maeks a reference to “detestable” idols (44:19). ..Like Moses, Isaiah declares pig meat to be “unclean” (Is. 65:4). ..Using pigs blood in sacrifices a “abomination” (Is. 66:3) and to drive the point home about pigs, he declares the “abominable” in Isaiah 66:17.For Jeremiah, detest and idol worship went hand in hand. ..He mentions detestable things a dozen times. ..In Jer. 2:7 Jeremiah laments that Israel’s sins made her inheritance detestable. ..“Detestable” is translated as “loathsome” conduct (Jer.6:15). ..In chapter 7, Jeremiah describes the practices that made idol worship so vile...Associated with idol worship were theft, murder, adultary and perjury. ..In doing so, Jeremiah mentions 5 of the 10 commandments. ..Ezekiel mentions “detestable” more than any other writer of Scripture. ..It is mentioned 35 times in the book the bears his name. ..He uses it to describe idols and idol worship. ..However, “detestable” is translated as “unclean” food in Ezekiel 4:14. ..In chapter 44:6, Ezekiel ..calls foreigners in the temple as a detestable practice.In Chapter 18, Ezekiel lists the following practices as “detestable”: eating ..at mountain shrine, .. defiles neighbor’s wife, .. oppresses ..the poor and needy, ..robbery, ..does not return pledge, ..looks to idols and .. lends excessive usury interests.Daniel brings us a unique use of the word “detestable”. ..He uses it as a technical term, “abomination of desolation” ( Dan. 9:27, 11:31, 12”11) to describe a specific eschatological event.The same phrase is found in Matt. 24:15, Mark 13:14 in reference to the same..prophetic event.Hosea 9:10 makes a reference to detestable idol worshipMicah 6:10 ..Micah considered dishonest measures to be detestable.Nahum 3:6 ..“Detest” is translated as “contempt”Zechariah 9:7 ..translates “detest” as “forbidden” food.In Malachi 2:1 “detest” is translated as “abomination” against the priests.
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  #56  
Old 06-21-2019, 05:54 AM
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Scott Pitta Scott Pitta is offline
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Re: Women Wearing Pants

In the New Testament “abomination” or “detestable” is translated by the Greek word “bdelugma”. ..Detest is used 9 times in the New Testament by 5 different authors.Matthew and Mark mention the technical term “abomination of desolation” in their respective books (Matt. 24:15, Mark 13:14).Luke 16:15 states that “What is highly valued amoung men is detestable in God’s sight.”Detest makes an appearance in the Book of Romans (2:22) where it is translated “abhor” idols.“To the pure” Paul says in Titus 1:16, “all things are pure, but to those who arecorrupt and do not believe, nothing is pure. ..If fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. ..They claim to know God, but by their actions, they deny him. ..They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing any good.”Paul contrasts “detest” with purity, as did Moses (Lev. 19:7). ..He grouped in inwith disobedient and unfit.Peter used the word “detest” in connection to idolatry (1 Peter 4:3). ..He uses the same combination that Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel did.John uses “detest” 4 times in the book of Revelation (Rev. 17:4, 17:5, 21:8, 21:27).In chapter 17 it is used to describe the harlot of Babylon.In chapter 21 it is used twice. ..Rev. 21:8 reads “But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars...” ..‘Detest” is translated “vile” in this scripture.Rev. 21:27 reads “ Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only whose names are writen in the lamb’s bookof life.” .. ..Detest is translated as “shameful” in this verse.This survey of the use of detestable things give us insight on the range of behaviors that were sinful to the Hebrews and to the Christians. ..But it sheds no more light on Deut. 22:5. ..Both Paul and Peter used the word “detest” in their writing. ..They both wrote about proper apparel for women. ..But neither writer used “detest” when writing about women’s apparel.Moses sometimes used “detest” as “unclean” like the 25 animals that were unclean to eat. ..Solomon used “detest” to describe conditions of the heart that God did not like. ..Prophets like Jeremiah and Ezekiel could not say “detestable” without saying“idol”. ..So did Paul and Peter. ..But they, like John also used it to describe the sinful fallen condition of sinful man. ..Just as it is used in the book of Job. ..
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  #57  
Old 06-21-2019, 09:19 AM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Women Wearing Pants

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
Would you then say that Deut 22:5 cannot really be used to argue that women must not wear pants?
IMO, yes.

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
That is, as long as a woman is not acting as a man or assuming his role, then modest pants are acceptable?
Yes

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
I've seen this word "bifurcated" several times recently (on another site). What is the origin of that word as a substitute for "pants"? Is there a reason why it is better to say this instead of just pants?
I don't know about the origin, other than there was a Pastor on here who used to post, especially about standards. He would use the word "bifurcated." Sometimes I use it to see if people know what it is.
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  #58  
Old 06-21-2019, 09:33 AM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Women Wearing Pants

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Originally Posted by Scott Pitta View Post
For me, it is all a matter of hermeneutics. How is Deut. 22:5 interpreted correctly ? How is one verse picked out of a chapter while the rest of the chapter is ignored ? Are believers to obey the Law of Moses or not ?
This is another argument I don't understand.

Here are the verses proceeding verse 5:
  • When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof
  • Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds:
  • Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together.
  • Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.
  • Thou shalt make thee fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture, wherewith thou coverest thyself.

From chapter 14: "And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase."

I don't know of any new homes with battlements. I have not seen anyone, even ultra cons, with fringes on the four quarters of their clothes. Most clothing today have mixed fabrics.

And let's not get started on bacon or BBQ pulled pork!

People take one verse and demand it be followed, but sure won't follow or try to enforce the verses surrounding it.
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  #59  
Old 06-21-2019, 09:46 AM
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jediwill83 jediwill83 is offline
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Re: Women Wearing Pants

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Originally Posted by n david View Post
This is another argument I don't understand.

Here are the verses proceeding verse 5:
  • When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof
  • Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds:
  • Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together.
  • Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.
  • Thou shalt make thee fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture, wherewith thou coverest thyself.

From chapter 14: "And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase."

I don't know of any new homes with battlements. I have not seen anyone, even ultra cons, with fringes on the four quarters of their clothes. Most clothing today have mixed fabrics.

And let's not get started on bacon or BBQ pulled pork!

People take one verse and demand it be followed, but sure won't follow or try to enforce the verses surrounding it.

Stop making so much sense with your well reasoned arguments man. Just accept its a slippery slope and you wont have to think so much.
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  #60  
Old 06-21-2019, 10:29 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Women Wearing Pants

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Originally Posted by n david View Post
This is another argument I don't understand.

Here are the verses proceeding verse 5:
  • When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof
  • Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds:
  • Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together.
  • Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.
  • Thou shalt make thee fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture, wherewith thou coverest thyself.

From chapter 14: "And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase."

I don't know of any new homes with battlements. I have not seen anyone, even ultra cons, with fringes on the four quarters of their clothes. Most clothing today have mixed fabrics.

And let's not get started on bacon or BBQ pulled pork!

People take one verse and demand it be followed, but sure won't follow or try to enforce the verses surrounding it.
The fact that people today choose one and not others does not mean that anyone should dispense with that one command. It simply proves people are inconsistent.

If one believes man is to live by every word of God, as Jesus said, then one believes they are to follow God's instructions as revealed in the Bible. If an instruction cannot be applied directly, as written, then the principle of the command must be discovered and applied to current situations. For example:

The wall on the roof of the house. Houses in Israel were flat topped and the roof served the purpose of a modern porch. A wall was to be contructed around the edge to keep people from falling off. This is why any elevated porches or balconies have fence railings (today), and if you dont have one and someone fell off your second floor unrailed balcony you would likely be sued and found negligent. Just like fencing in an inground pool for the most part. Today, in the US, roofs are peaked and not designed for human occupancy. If a roof is flat and designed for occupancy (as on most commercial buildings) it has a wall or rail.

So the application is as follows: if your roof is flat and people are going to be hanging out there, make sure there is a wall or fence type protective barrier so people dont fall off and injure or kill themselves.

Sowing with diverse seeds. The exact meaning is debatable, and has been debated for almost 2000 years if not longer. The intent seems to be an orderly arrangement of field crops and vineyards. Some suggest it has to do with prevention of unwanted hybridization of food crops which could lead to food shortage in a primarily agrarian society. Some say it has to do with some kind of pagan custom meant to "bless" the crop.

Ox and ass jointly yoked. This is similar to the mingled seed command. Cows and donkeys probably dont work too well together as a yoked team. But beyond practical implications, both instructions are designed to teach the concepts of segregation, where things unlike are separated into their respective and appropriate spheres as a living applied ongoing object lesson in holiness (separation). God is holy, His people are holy, so that principle of holiness is to be seen as a fundamental principle operating in just about every sphere of life.

The prohibition against linsey-woolsey is a particularly interesting subject. One of my daughters spent about a year researching this particular one in an effort to understand what the point of it was. Comparing the Hebrew with the Septuagint Greek and the two places the command occurs we concluded it is a specific prohibition against linen and wool garments, which were actually used by the priests. So the prohibition not only has nothing at all to do with polyester blends, but is directed to prohibiting non priests from wearing priest-like garments. Just like the prohibitions against non priestly use of the priestly anointing oil recipe or incense.

Fringes (tassels). This is technically required for four cornered garments, essentially a poncho or a chiton, common in the ancient near east. So technically shirts and pants arent required to have tassels. Tthere is also some debate about what exactly is being described, the other verse in Numbers which addresses this describes them as wreathen or braided or chain like attachments. There is debate as to whether they are to hang down or instead to follow the hem or edge of the garment. There is also debate as to whether or not this is an instruction for individuals to actually make fringes themselves for their four cornered garments, or just to have them on one's garments. In any event, they are to have a blue thread involved, and the purpose is to remind the wearer of God's commandments. Jesus' words against the Pharisees on the subject indicates the fringes are meant to be seen by the wearer, not the public, and thus ought to be either hidden from public view or else be kept inconspicuous.

The distinction between clean and unclean animals was known in Noah's day long before Sinai, and is affirmed by the apostle Paul in the new testament as valid. I'll just leave that there for now.


It should be noticed that all these instructions provide mechanisms for reminding the people of the necessity of DISTINCTION and SEPARATION as a called out peculiar people belonging exclusively to Jehovah. These were mechanisms devised by God for this purpose and therefore should not be denigrated or scoffed at as silly or unimportant. Many of these holiness rules or "standards" are rather insignificant in themselves, but serve as object lessons or opportunities for teaching and reflection on spiritual matters, especially as regards the concept of being called out from among the heathen to be God's specially purchased people.

It is interesting how ready people are to follow man made regulations regarding attire, appearance, and lifestyle, but balk at following actual God ordained and inspired regulations regarding those same subjects.


It is also interesting how most of these regulations contain no corresponding penalty for failure to implement. People often grasp the idea of a rule or standard not being a heaven or hell issue but cant seem to imagine God might have some rules that arent heaven or hell issues. Of course, rebellion or willfull presumptuous disobedience is another matter, and on reflection ought to be self evident. A parent might have a rule for their child, say be home by 10. Getting home at 10:30 may incur no penalty, say if the cause was inadvertent or even a case of forgetfulness. Or it might result in much more severe consequences if the cause is an obstinate stubborn rebelliousness born out of a conscious willful choice to disobey.


Many of the Bible's various instructions may not have an immediately obvious purpose. But the whole point here is STUDY, the very concept of being a disciple is that of study of God's instructiins. Asking "Why?" and "How does this apply?" and similar questions directs the student to ponder and search out God's purposes and His ways. This draws the disciple closer to God by providing opportunity to "learn from God". Too many look at the Bible as a list of mere rules, some to be followed and most to be ignored, usually at will. Rather than looking at it as instructional material from our Father meant to draw us into an ongoing dialogue with Him.
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Last edited by Esaias; 06-21-2019 at 11:06 AM.
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