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Old 08-14-2019, 06:17 AM
BCsenior BCsenior is offline
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Who are all these people in John 14-15-16?

John 14, NKJV
15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever —
17 the Spirit of truth … you know Him,
for He dwells with you and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
21 He who has My commandments and keeps them,
it is he who loves Me … I will love him and manifest Myself to him.
23 If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word;
and My Father will love him,
and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit,
whom the Father will send in My name,
He will teach you all things …
28 ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ …
‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.

John 15, NKJV
26 But when the Helper comes,
whom I shall send to you from the Father,
the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father,
He will testify of Me.

John 16, NKJV
5 But now I go away to Him who sent Me …
7 … if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you;
but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come,
He will guide you into all truth;
16 A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while,
and you will see Me, because I go to the Father.
28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world.
Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.

14:15 … There is a condition for 14:16 to happen …
and it is loving Jesus enough to obey His commandments.

14:16 … Jesus will pray to Father God who will send “another” Helper,
the Holy Spirit, to abide with believers forever.
It appears that the abiding “forever” depends on believers being obedient.
“another” Helper … Greek “allos”, meaning “another of the same kind”.
So, the Holy Spirit is “another of the same kind” as Jesus.
I.E. The Holy Spirit is God -- another Manifestation of God.

14:17 … The Holy Spirit of truth will dwell “in” believers.

14:18 … Jesus will come to dependent believers as the Holy Spirit.

14:21 … There is a condition for Jesus coming to believers,
which is loving Him enough to obey His commandments.

14:23 … Again, there is a condition for Jesus coming to a believer,
which is loving Him enough to obey His commandments.
But this time, Jesus says “We” will come to the believer,
and make “Our” home with him/her.
Okay, who is “We”? … Is it Father God and Jesus?
No, Father God and Jesus will come in the form of the Holy Spirit.
IMO, all Three will come and dwell INSIDE the believer.

14:26 … Father God will send the Holy Spirit to teach all (spiritual) things.

14:28 … Jesus is going away, but will return to believers as the Holy Spirit.
Father God is greater than Jesus, who is stumbling around in the dirt.

15:26 … Jesus will send the Holy Spirit from Father God.

16:5 … Jesus is going back to Father God who sent Him to earth.

16:7 … Jesus must go away, if He is to send the Holy Spirit to believers.

16:13 … The Holy Spirit will come and guide believers into all truth.

16:16 … Jesus is going away to Father God, but will return as the Holy Spirit.

16:28 … Jesus came from Father God into the world, and is going back.

“He who is of God hears God’s words” (John 8:47)

“And you shall know the truth,
and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:32)

“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him
must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24)

.

Last edited by BCsenior; 08-14-2019 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:21 AM
BCsenior BCsenior is offline
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Re: Who are all these people in John 14-15-16?

537 views and still counting!
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  #3  
Old 08-18-2019, 10:31 PM
TakingDominion TakingDominion is offline
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Re: Who are all these people in John 14-15-16?

Jesus!
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Old 08-18-2019, 11:25 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Who are all these people in John 14-15-16?

BCSenior,
You come to a Oneness forum to talk about Trinity. In the previous threads you asked, and exposed, and people spent a significant amount of their time explaining to you Oneness and reviewing your argument, yet, instead of having a spirit of learning you are showing that you are not listening to what we have to to say. There were many arguments presented to you against Trinity and for Oneness and you have left many of them unanswered.
The fact that nobody comes to answer may be just because of people may not want to argue forever.

Granted, the “we” may not be an obvious thing to see, but I’m going to give you possible explanations that you will not accept anyways. You are looking for obscure passages to argue for the Trinity but we have showed you with overwhelming evidences that the Bible is monotheistic and the theme stays the same even with the Apostles. Didn’t they say in many places that God is still one as in the OT? Didn’t I quote them from different Epistles?

What is the beginning theme of the book of John? The Word of God becoming flesh. Who is the Father of Jesus? The Holy Spirit. The Father is the Holy Spirit.
Maybe Jesus was talking about the Word and the Holy Spirit coming to the believer life? Notice how Jesus was continually talking about keeping his words while he was saying the “we” and the “our”.

This explanation would go in line with the theme of John, also with the immediate context, and also with OT prophesy:

“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jeremiah 31:33

Another explanation is that Jesus was talking of what happens to you when you are baptized in water and the Spirit.
When you are baptized in Jesus’s name, you become participant of the benefit of the cross, his name comes upon you, and then his Spirit comes and fills you.
This explanation goes in line with the passage topic: what was going to happen after Jesus left (Acts 1-2), and also with the theology of salvation of the New Testament. That passage is a little bit of a challenges to explain as the end of it tells you why:
[Jhn 16:25 NASB] 25 "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father.


Did Jesus use figure of speech? Do you want to see Jesus using figures of speech that will leave your head spinning? See John 6:53-58, and the explanation in verse 63.

The 14-15-16 passage tells you at the end that there are some figure of speech involved.

Last edited by coksiw; 08-18-2019 at 11:57 PM.
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Old 08-19-2019, 05:14 AM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Who are all these people in John 14-15-16?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BCsenior View Post
537 views and still counting!
And they are all as teachable as you.
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Old 08-19-2019, 04:11 PM
BCsenior BCsenior is offline
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Re: Who are all these people in John 14-15-16?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
BCSenior,
You come to a Oneness forum to talk about Trinity.
Yes, and you all proved to me that you absolutely
ignore and/or reject several obvious verses in the NT.

Therefore, you MUST INSIST that someone has messed with the NT.
................................ So, start insisting!

I really don't care a whole lot about the OT.
I'm a "new covenant" guy ... I focus on the NT.
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Old 08-19-2019, 04:26 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is online now
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Re: Who are all these people in John 14-15-16?

Quote:
I really don't care a whole lot about the OT.
I'm a "new covenant" guy ... I focus on the NT.
When you get serious about knowing who Jesus is you will look to the OT foundation.

Hear Oh Israel the Lord our God is one Lord. Duet. 6:4

Jesus said the same in the new. Mark 12:29
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Old 08-19-2019, 04:38 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Who are all these people in John 14-15-16?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BCsenior View Post
Yes, and you all proved to me that you absolutely
ignore and/or reject several obvious verses in the NT.
You mean the ones that affirm "One Trinity of Persons in the unity of the Godhead" or the one that says "There are three Divine Subsistences subsisting hypostatically in one Divine Essence, with perichoresis in all"?

Those verses?
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Old 08-20-2019, 06:12 AM
BCsenior BCsenior is offline
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Re: Who are all these people in John 14-15-16?


Eternal Life is knowing BOTH the Father and the Son
John 17:
1 Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh,
that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work
which You have given Me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself,
with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Father God also sends the Holy Spirit
John 14:
15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.
16 And I will pray to the Father,
and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever —
17 the Spirit of truth … you know Him,
for He dwells with you and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Is this the shortest Trinity verse in Scripture?
John 14:16
“And I (Jesus) will pray to the Father,
and He will give you another Helper”

Last edited by BCsenior; 08-20-2019 at 06:15 AM.
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Old 08-20-2019, 07:52 AM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Who are all these people in John 14-15-16?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
If God became a man, actually began to exist as a human being, without ceasing to be God (omnipresent Spirit), how would that human being speak?

I imagine He would speak exactly like He does in the Bible.

On the other hand, if God were a trinity of persons, and one of them became a human, I suspect He would speak of God in the plural: "They", rather than "Him". Unless He had no human consciousness, but was just God-in-a-physical-body. In which case His speech would not really make sense to us, people would think He was schizophrenic or psychotic, not to mention He simply wouldn't act, think, or feel in any genuinely human manner at all.

I also think He would mention "Hey, we're a trinity of Divine Persons". That He never said that is enough for me to reject the speculative nonsense of 4th and 5th century catholic priests.
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