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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #1391  
Old 08-07-2019, 11:13 PM
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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Originally Posted by JamesGlen View Post
A few questions:
Quote:
We, the ecclesia:
Who all scripturally allowed to receive tithe?
Since tithing is not mandated on the NT church then there is no teaching on who can and can't receive it. Though the apostles where the one that recieved the collections(not tithes) and they were entrusted with how it was used.

Quote:
Who all can tithe be given to by the Christian tither?
Can giving straight to the poor or needy instead of a local assembly offering plate be acceptable as tithe?
Can buying someone groceries be a normal replacement of tithing money to a local assembly?
I believe that is between a person and God. I just don't understand why it is so dificult for people to want to give to a local church. I guess just like Hophni and Phineas, people feel like if they contribute to the local church then it will be mishandled. Do we not get fed spiritually when we gather together. Does the local church not try to meet modern comforts that we expect in our homes like a/c, even activities that gives us opportunities for good Christian fellowship, and not to mention I enjoy the singers and musician that devote themself to leading in worship. I assure you that when you turn on your radio to that christian brodcasting the reason that you are able to enjoy the music is because they are generating a revenue.

I am not saying give your 10% to the church and have no personal alms or outreach to anything else. I just love my church. I have always loved the church's that I have been a part of. I want to contribute to their survival. To me it is the right thing to do and if tithing is a stumbling block then what else. If people want to call it committed giving, faith promise, etc..., but to me there is something wrong when you don't want to support and be a part of a local body in which you have trusted Bros and Sis.

Quote:
Are local church buildings REALLY the New Testament replacement for storehouses in the OT?
In a way. Do you feed Spiritually when you receive the word of God through men that have been called to preach the gospel. "If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?" It is like people begrudge ordained church ministry. People don't want any church eldership and if they do why no honour it.

Quote:
Jesus said if you’ve done it into the least of these....can that count as tithe?
I am in no way a legalist with tithing and so I will not trample upon anyone's generosity (if that is how they want to give). Abraham looked at Melchizedek as representative of God that he could give upward to. I am not trying to make people feel belittled but why is it hard to have an elder(pastor) in our life who we give upwardly to. Recognizing them as an elder placed in our lives for instruction. If they are untrustworthy then we should find somwhere to grow that we feel safe.
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  #1392  
Old 08-07-2019, 11:40 PM
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
I see your point. You think of it as a recommended amount, for practical reasons, to be able to pay the bills.

There is nothing wrong with that system if it is taught that way and the church agrees with it.

Teaching it as a commandment from the Lord, to the point of saying that if you don't tithe you are sinning and going to hell (as I have heard it from the pulpit before), is not a correct interpretation of the Bible.

I believe in systematic offerings as well, especially if the church wants to have a building, why not! As long as we agree and setup something fair, and people are not prevented from serving because they can't afford to give 10%

But the reality is that that's not what happens. Tithing is always taught with pressure, and with punishment: if you don't tithe, you can't serve in certain roles in the assembly, etc...
Tithing I know has been misrepresented by many. For many it is tradition and they preach it hard in sincerity and not meaning to be false teachers. On the other hand, many that come against tithing do so because they are offended and feel like they have been bewronged by leadership. I have been offended and have seen ministry fail. But, I still have not given up on church infrastructure and leadership and the financial support of it.

As for people not being able to afford to tithe I find that an oxymoron. a tithe is a tenth of something, if you don't have anything there is no tithe to give. I understand moments in life where people have either made bad choices or have had tragedies that have affected their finances. In those moments you can only do the best you can. Those times are only temporary though, and people should be good stewards to get back on track where they can be productive for their ownselves along with the kingdom of God. Personally the church should band together to help its members to get back on their feet.

I don't really ever know who is tithing at our church. I don't request proof of income, but if someone wants to lead in the church and the have no systematic giving it is red flag that they are not committed. I don't wish to belittle them and I will never ask anyone how much they make. Our salvation is not dependent on 10% or any other percentage, but is a matter of our heart toward God. Often times where our treassures are, it just simply proves where our heart is.
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  #1393  
Old 08-07-2019, 11:57 PM
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

I do know people who give so sacrificially with their time that they barely survive financially. I realize that their are many ways people can give to the Lord. It is God who will be our judge and we should be tolerant of different views. I don't view people a sinners just because they are not pro tithing. Awesome thing is that I have seen people who are not pro tithers appear to tithe or give systematically because they trusted leadership. It is sad when leaders send the signal that they are nothing more than hirelings. If money is what motivates the ministry then we are not truly called of God.
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  #1394  
Old 08-08-2019, 12:01 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
Tithing I know has been misrepresented by many. For many it is tradition and they preach it hard in sincerity and not meaning to be false teachers. On the other hand, many that come against tithing do so because they are offended and feel like they have been bewronged by leadership. I have been offended and have seen ministry fail. But, I still have not given up on church infrastructure and leadership and the financial support of it.
Quote:
As for people not being able to afford to tithe I find that an oxymoron. a tithe is a tenth of something, if you don't have anything there is no tithe to give. I understand moments in life where people have either made bad choices or have had tragedies that have affected their finances. In those moments you can only do the best you can. Those times are only temporary though, and people should be good stewards to get back on track where they can be productive for their ownselves along with the kingdom of God. Personally the church should band together to help its members to get back on their feet.
Brother, open your eyes, you leave in the USA, where people are rich, and the poor among you is a wealthy man in other countries. You can simplistically say that you get to keep 90%; but the reality is that after taxes and bills, the difference between 90% and 95% in a low middle class family is the different between you can cloth or even feed your kids sufficiently or not. Or the different in the ability to honor your parents or not. I have seen this with my own eyes. USA is the third country I have lived in.

Here in the USA, what I have observed is that elders, living of SS and renting and trying to keep up with their old broken cars, needing help to pay bills or fixing their cars can benefit from some systematic help. Poverty in the USA manifests itself more often as insane amount of debt (hospital bills, cars fixes, etc...). It makes people feel good to say and think that the cause of all poverty is impulsive spending and money mismanagement and blame the poor for their poverty, and close their heart to the situation. We are talking about brothers and sisters, with good testimony, not about random homeless people out there that can have other much serious issues and money won't do much. A middle class family, with little kids, if they really pay 10% of the gross, can't afford to really help other brothers and sisters systematically, or even their own parents sometimes.

Sometimes, when I think of this, I remember this verse: Mat 25:38-40. How can they really do something like that if they are not taught about it and there is no much left after tithing? They only teach "bring it to the Lord; and we will take care of it", but they miss the actual message of the NT "share it with your brethren, your family in Christ, and double honor those that are dedicated to the preaching; and that's what pleases the Lord". They teach "the Lord will bless you if you tithe, just tithe, you'll see", but they miss Jas 2:15-16 and 1Jo 3:17. Anyways, that's what traditions of man do.

Quote:
I don't really ever know who is tithing at our church. I don't request proof of income, but if someone wants to lead in the church and the have no systematic giving it is red flag that they are not committed. I don't wish to belittle them and I will never ask anyone how much they make. Our salvation is not dependent on 10% or any other percentage, but is a matter of our heart toward God. Often times where our treassures are, it just simply proves where our heart is.
I'm glad to see how you handle it. I go to a church that tithe, and I do tithe, and I love my people as you do. I do see clearly in the Bible that tithing is not for the church, but if people want to believe, go for it. It is not a salvation issue. Just make sure you don't end up missing the actual command from the Lord because of a tradition of men.

Last edited by coksiw; 08-08-2019 at 12:19 AM.
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  #1395  
Old 08-08-2019, 01:13 AM
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

Quote:
Brother, open your eyes, you leave in the USA, where people are rich, and the poor among you is a wealthy man in other countries. You can simplistically say that you get to keep 90%; but the reality is that after taxes and bills, the difference between 90% and 95% in a low middle class family is the different between you can cloth or even feed your kids sufficiently or not. Or the different in the ability to honor your parents or not. I have seen this with my own eyes. USA is the third country I have lived in.

Here in the USA, what I have observed is that elders, living of SS and renting and trying to keep up with their old broken cars, needing help to pay bills or fixing their cars can benefit from some systematic help. Poverty in the USA manifests itself more often as insane amount of debt (hospital bills, cars fixes, etc...). It makes people feel good to say and think that the cause of all poverty is impulsive spending and money mismanagement and blame the poor for their poverty, and close their heart to the situation. We are talking about brothers and sisters, with good testimony, not about random homeless people out there that can have other much serious issues and money won't do much. A middle class family, with little kids, if they really pay 10% of the gross, can't afford to really help other brothers and sisters systematically, or even their own parents sometimes.
Funny thing, its in my experience that this is the category that most legalistic tithers fit into. People like many's grandparents that barely make it on their SSI, but yet they want miss putting their 10% percent in. My perception is only from what I see with my relatives and people that I am close to. People who make tithing a heaven or hell while I am steady saying that giving is a matter of the heart and teaching it because the benefits of good stewardship. It is ussually not the seniors in our churches who struggle with tithing. It is most often times those who have moderate incomes that I see struggling with it. Our seniors aren't spending all their money on internet, cable, nice restaurants, latest trending clothes, etc...

I am speaking more freely on this forum than I would personally. I think there are far more important matters than financial stewardship in tithing. I do find that most case that people put the seniors and disabled up front on this issue, but ussually our seniors are the first to give.
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  #1396  
Old 08-08-2019, 08:08 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

Brother all I'm saying is that tithing is not only a wrong interpretation of the Bible, but also may have a negative impact on people. It may be a stumbling block for those that can't afford it because of the feeling that they are guilty, it may be stumbling block for the Pastors, because they prevent people from serving without the authority of the Lord to do so, and it may be a stumbling block for the rich, because they may think that they are OK with God by giving 10% "to the Lord" and that's it. It may be also a stumbling block for those that wish to help a brother or honor their own parents but can't afford after tithing, effectively unable to obey the actual commandment from the Lord because of a tradition of men. Notice that I say "may", it is not a 100% thing.
If it is not in the Bible, all of the above is totally unnecessary.


Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
...I do find that most case that people put the seniors and disabled up front on this issue, but ussually our seniors are the first to give.
Sure!

Last edited by coksiw; 08-08-2019 at 08:13 AM.
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  #1397  
Old 08-21-2019, 12:13 PM
The Lemon The Lemon is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
Tithing I know has been misrepresented by many. For many it is tradition and they preach it hard in sincerity and not meaning to be false teachers. On the other hand, many that come against tithing do so because they are offended and feel like they have been bewronged by leadership. I have been offended and have seen ministry fail. But, I still have not given up on church infrastructure and leadership and the financial support of it.

As for people not being able to afford to tithe I find that an oxymoron. a tithe is a tenth of something, if you don't have anything there is no tithe to give. I understand moments in life where people have either made bad choices or have had tragedies that have affected their finances. In those moments you can only do the best you can. Those times are only temporary though, and people should be good stewards to get back on track where they can be productive for their ownselves along with the kingdom of God. Personally the church should band together to help its members to get back on their feet.

I don't really ever know who is tithing at our church. I don't request proof of income, but if someone wants to lead in the church and the have no systematic giving it is red flag that they are not committed. I don't wish to belittle them and I will never ask anyone how much they make. Our salvation is not dependent on 10% or any other percentage, but is a matter of our heart toward God. Often times where our treassures are, it just simply proves where our heart is.
Bravo! Thank you for a sincere and balanced approach to a subject that gets much attention - both positive and negative. I understand the importance of Biblical study and accuracy - that said, giving will always be a heart issue, money or otherwise. I have been poor, lived in a trailer making $6.50 an hour at one point in my life...and I still tithed. I did at one point suspend other offerings due to financial issues, but I did not stop tithing.

I understand all the reasoning for the issue in relation to the new testament church, still, I have never been worse off because I gave - finances, time, talent, etc. My stance has always been to do what is right and Biblical to the best of my understanding - the right thing is extremely important to me.

Again, thank you for your approach on this subject!
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  #1398  
Old 08-21-2019, 04:22 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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Originally Posted by The Lemon View Post
Bravo! Thank you for a sincere and balanced approach to a subject that gets much attention - both positive and negative. I understand the importance of Biblical study and accuracy - that said, giving will always be a heart issue, money or otherwise. I have been poor, lived in a trailer making $6.50 an hour at one point in my life...and I still tithed. I did at one point suspend other offerings due to financial issues, but I did not stop tithing.

I understand all the reasoning for the issue in relation to the new testament church, still, I have never been worse off because I gave - finances, time, talent, etc. My stance has always been to do what is right and Biblical to the best of my understanding - the right thing is extremely important to me.

Again, thank you for your approach on this subject!

It really doesn't matter if you can/can't pay tithes when you were rich/poor, or whatever you experience is. Tithing is not a commandment of the Lord for the Church, and the ministry are not the new Levites 1Pe 2:9.
When Paul brought a verse from the OT to justify the support of ministry he didn't bring tithing, but the laws regarding the ox 1Co 9:9.

The question is, do you guys want to embrace and live the truth ?
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