Apostles and Prophets?

[Praxeas]

I think often "prophets" in "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets" to most refers to OT prophets. However this verse might counter that notion.

Eph 3:4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,
Eph 3:5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

[1Corinth2v4]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I think often "prophets" in "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets" to most refers to OT prophets. However this verse might counter that notion.

Eph 3:4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,
Eph 3:5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Praxeas, what's your opinion regarding how roles differ between a pastor and prophet?

[OneAccord]

You didn't ask me, but I'll give you my opion, if you don't mind. Primarily, a pastor brings messages -sermons on a varity of topics).

A Prophet brings A Message. We mistake the role of the prophet. We think a prophet speaks some future event and we sit back to see if it comes to pass or not, and we judge accordingly. And rightfully so, because the Bible says to do so. However, speaking words of prophecy is but one side of the ministry of a prophet. A very small side. The Message a prophet brings...that is what we should hear.

Eph 3:4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,
Eph 3:5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

The Message of the prophet in Eph. 3 was to reveal the mystery of Christ.

[Sam]

In my opinion, God placed Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers in the church for His own reasons and those offices will be in the church until it reaches perfection.
That is my understanding of Ephesians 4:11-16

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I think often "prophets" in "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets" to most refers to OT prophets. However this verse might counter that notion.

Eph 3:4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,
Eph 3:5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; eph 2:20

Prax, I see what you're saying but I believe this foundation the church is built upon is the word of God we have received from the apostles and the prophets. The written word of God. The OT prophets spoke of Christ and the apostles confirmed their words.

What NT prophets can you find who have written about the mystery that the Gentiles are fellow heirs?

[Sam]

When I was attending the Apostolic Bible Institute in St. Paul, MN in 1956-1957, Bro. S.G. Norris taught us plainly that the apostles and prophets were foundational in the church (based on Ephesians 2:20 and Revelation 21:14) and that these offices ceased in the first century. He taught that there were only 12 apostles, that the choosing of Matthias was an error and Paul was the 12th and last apostle. I was a new Christian but I found several more men in the NT who were called apostles so I knew that what he was teaching was not true. Looking back, I think he was still reacting to the "Latter Rain" movement which had caused some problems in the UPC a few years previously.

As far as prophets in the NT church, we don't read of many mentioned by name. Ones I can think of right now are:

--Agabus and some others who are not named, Acts 11:27-28; 21:10
--Barnabas, Simeon, Lucius, Manaen, Saul Acts 13:1, these are listed as prophets and teachers so I don't know if they all fulfilled both offices or if some were prophets and others were teachers
--Judas and Silas, Acts 15:32
perhaps someone can think of more

In 1 Corinthians 12 where some of the gifts of the Spirit are listed, one of them is the office of prophet, ref 1 Corinthians 12:28-29

And in 1 Corinthians 14 where the protocol for operating spiritual gifts is set up, we are told to let 2 or 3 prophets speak. We are also told that we can all prophesy (hopefully not all in the same service) so that indicates to me that the gift of prophecy (which we are all told to covet) and the office/gift of a prophet are two separate things. Ref 1 Corinthians 14:29-33

[Sam]

Every so often we talk on this forum about apostles in the New Testament.

I have the following notes about 26 people called "apostle" or "messenger" or "he that is sent" who are named. There are also a couple who are not named, plus Jesus is called an apostle in the NT.

The original 12 are listed in Matthew 10:1-4 and Luke 6:12-16.

Here is the list according to my notes (don't know for sure where I got these notes or if the word count is accurate)

Apostles
See Matthew 10:1-4; Luke 6:12-16 for original 12

The word apostle comes from apo(apart) and stello(set fast)
and means one set apart, a delegated messenger

apostolos -a delegate, one sent with full power of attorney to act in the place of another, the sender remaining behind to back up the one sent.

The word occurs 81 times in the NT,
It is translated apostle 78 times,
messenger 2 times,
and he that is sent 1 time.

1 Peter, or Simon, or Kefa
2 Andrew
3 James (brother of John)
4 John (brother of James)
5 Philip
6 Batholomew or Nathaniel, brother of Philip
7 James, son of Alphaeus or James the less Mark 15:40
8 Judas, or Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus, son of James,
9 Matthew or Levi of Alphaeus Mark 2:14; Lu 6:15-16
10Thomas or Didymus or Twin
11 Simon the Zealot Acts 1:13
12 Judas Iscariot
13 Matthias Acts 1:26 (Paul refers to him as one of the 12 in I Cor 15:5)
14 Saul or Paul Gal. 1:1; 2:7,8
15 Barnabas Acts 11:22; 13:1-4; 14:1,4,14;I Cor 9:5-6
16 Andronicus Rom 16:7
17 Junia or Junias, or Julia Rom 16:7 (only woman called an apostle)
18 Apollos I Cor 4:6-9
19 James the Lord’s brother Gal 1:19 Acts 1:14, 1 Cor 15:7
20 Timothy I Thess 1:1; 2:6
21 Silas or Silvanus I Thess 1:1; 2:6, Acts 15:23
22 Titus 2 Cor. 8:23 (messenger) Acts 19:22
23 Epaphroditus Phil 2:25 (messenger)
24 Erastus Acts 19:22
25 Judas (Barsabas) Acts 15:23
26 Tychicus 2 Tim 4:12
27 Unnamed brothers 2 Cor 8:23
28 Jesus Christ Heb. 3:1

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Sam

When I was attending the Apostolic Bible Institute in St. Paul, MN in 1956-1957, Bro. S.G. Norris taught us plainly that the apostles and prophets were foundational in the church (based on Ephesians 2:20 and Revelation 21:14) and that these offices ceased in the first century. He taught that there were only 12 apostles, that the choosing of Matthias was an error and Paul was the 12th and last apostle. I was a new Christian but I found several more men in the NT who were called apostles so I knew that what he was teaching was not true. Looking back, I think he was still reacting to the "Latter Rain" movement which had caused some problems in the UPC a few years previously.

As far as prophets in the NT church, we don't read of many mentioned by name. Ones I can think of right now are:

--Agabus and some others who are not named, Acts 11:27-28; 21:10
--Barnabas, Simeon, Lucius, Manaen, Saul Acts 13:1, these are listed as prophets and teachers so I don't know if they all fulfilled both offices or if some were prophets and others were teachers
--Judas and Silas, Acts 15:32
perhaps someone can think of more

In 1 Corinthians 12 where some of the gifts of the Spirit are listed, one of them is the office of prophet, ref 1 Corinthians 12:28-29

And in 1 Corinthians 14 where the protocol for operating spiritual gifts is set up, we are told to let 2 or 3 prophets speak. We are also told that we can all prophesy (hopefully not all in the same service) so that indicates to me that the gift of prophecy (which we are all told to covet) and the office/gift of a prophet are two separate things. Ref 1 Corinthians 14:29-33

Now that is just plain ignorant, in my opinion, to say only those two offices ended in the first century, yet while in the SAME verse the pastors are also listed but they haven't cease to exist. Convient wouldn't you say?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; eph 2:20

Prax, I see what you're saying but I believe this foundation the church is built upon is the word of God we have received from the apostles and the prophets. The written word of God. The OT prophets spoke of Christ and the apostles confirmed their words.

What NT prophets can you find who have written about the mystery that the Gentiles are fellow heirs?

But Paul speaks of a knowledge others did not have in the past and is JUST NOW being revealed by the Apostles and prophets

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

But Paul speaks of a knowledge others did not have in the past and is JUST NOW being revealed by the Apostles and prophets

I think it is best to see the "NOW" as being during the first century - that's when Paul was saying "NOW" and so that's when the "NOW" was happening.

The phrase "apostles and prophets" as used by Paul may even indicate something behind the way the New Testament books were written, compiled and the canon was formed. A lot of NT scholars will point out to differences in style in the writings of even just Paul himself.

A few will attempt to assert that there may have been several "pseudo-Pauls" based upon these changes in style and language in the body of writings traditionally attributed to Paul. The Book of Hebrews is a classic example and much of the writing is markedly different from the style and language used by Paul elsewhere.

Personally, I think much of the textual criticism of the last 100 years has been something of a fad, one that is wearing out now. However, it is hard to look past some of the salient points the "critics" have brought up. I have come to wonder, for example, if it might not be a good idea to sometimes refer to a "School of Paul" as being responsible for much of the writings attributed to the Apostle Paul himself.

The Acts of the Apostles makes it plain that Paul never travelled alone even when in chains! Also, there are several instances referred to in Acts and the epistles where "prophets" contribute to the ministry of the apostle. These individuals included Silas, Barnabas, Timothy, Apollos, Priscilla, Aquila, Tychicus, Onesimus and others.

In Galatians 6:11 we read: "See what big letters I make as I write to you with my own hand!" (NET Bible). It is interesting that Paul points out what his own handwriting looks like.

It may be that "the prophets" under discussion here in the NT are those who contributed to the writing and formation of the NT itself, working along side "the apostles."