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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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Old 08-29-2017, 08:31 AM
TakingDominion TakingDominion is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Southwest Michigan
Posts: 534
Amazing Grace

Hello all,

I'm starting this thread looking for opinions and discussion. Not looking to start an argument.

I have 2 friends that are questioning everything we hold dear as Apostolic doctrine. One friend of mine has just last week called his pastor, denounced everything we believe and left the church. He also rebuked his pastor and told him to come out of this false doctrine. This man actually went a step further, called many people that he had invited to church over the years, and apologized for introducing them to false doctrine. He has denounced speaking in tongues, the necessity of any baptism and living above sin. He now believes that we are saved by grace, and grace alone. My friend now believes that he can sin, go confess his sins and poof, he's saved by grace.

All this was communicated to me by the man's pastor himself. What is most disturbing is that my friend was on fire for God. His pastor confirmed this to me. He was an avid reader of scripture, a ready witness and an awesome worshipper. God had delivered him from a life of drugs and sin. He always wore long sleeves, not because of standards but in order to cover up the sleeve tattoos he has.

My heart breaks for this man and his family. Now my second friend, he has not left the church, but he and I have had many discussions recently and I'm afraid he's on the same road. He refuses to acknowledge ANY OT scripture because we're no longer under the law. He believes our holiness standards are very close to being Pharisee in nature. His favorite preacher is Ron Carpenter (Google him). He views most of Oneness as observing traditions when it comes to doctrine, lifestyle and teaching. I have not heard him question baptism or receiving the holy ghost, but I feel like that is the path he is on. He has told me a few times, that he doesn't love his church.

I pray for him and I talk to him a lot. Many of the things he says have a thread of truth in them, but I feel like he's going about it the wrong way. He has told me he doesn't believe in prayer or fasting. He dismissed many of his elders beliefs as merely traditions. At one time, he was into Matt Maddix, if that tells you anything.

I'm looking for what thoughts the forum has on the Grace doctrine. Also, what experiences have any of you had with friends leaving truth. God bless and thank you in advance for your responses.
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  #2  
Old 08-29-2017, 09:11 AM
consapente89 consapente89 is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,242
Re: Amazing Grace

The man that won me to God and was a spiritual leader in my life when I came to truth is now a United Methodist minister that believes its ok for queers to marry. It's a sad road. All I can say is, that if that man's pastor can't restore him, I don't know that there is much hope that you will be able to either. I do believe there is a point of no return, and I pray that your friend is rescued before he goes too far.
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  #3  
Old 08-29-2017, 10:46 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sebastian, FL
Posts: 8,754
Re: Amazing Grace

Im just posting something here so that your thread won't feel lonely

-----------------------------------
Grace? God decided to bring destruction on the people of the world because it was so wicked but Noah caught the grace of God, God gave him a plan to escape. Noah had to obey God, build the boat according to specification and get on the boat or he would share the fate of the wicked. It's the same today.

Matthew 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
---------------------------------

Prodigals? love them and pray for them. God won't let go of them, he loves them more than you do and while there is breath there is hope.

Luke 15
1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.
10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Last edited by Amanah; 08-29-2017 at 10:48 AM.
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  #4  
Old 08-29-2017, 10:48 AM
TakingDominion TakingDominion is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Southwest Michigan
Posts: 534
Re: Amazing Grace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
I just posting something here so that your thread won't feel lonely

-----------------------------------
Grace? God decided to bring destruction on the people of the world because it was so wicked but Noah caught the grace of God, God gave him a plan to escape. Noah had to obey God, build the boat according to specification and get on the boat or he would share the fate of the wicked. It's the same today.

Matthew 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
---------------------------------

Prodigals? love them and pray for them. God won't let go of them, he loves them more than you do and while there is breath there is hope.

Luke 15
1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.
10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
thank you!
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  #5  
Old 08-31-2017, 12:39 AM
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votivesoul votivesoul is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 5,440
Re: Amazing Grace

I have found that the issue is never really the issue. There is always something not said, under the surface, that's really the cause and motivation behind a person's actions.

Based on what you wrote in the OP, there looks to be a thread of anger or hurt, and guilt by association with some projection. A man gets hurt, his hurt doesn't heal, he gets agitated by it, he gets mad, he blows his top and rails against the source of the hurt as if, since the hurt came from that direction, anything attached to that direction must be evil, or else he would not have been hurt and still be hurting. So renunciation takes hold and the ship is wrecked among the shoals.

I think you should call the first friend and try to hear him out. But don't respond with a ready counter-argument. Look for what isn't being said, trying to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit.

The second friend looks more like someone who's just hit a patch of doubt and insecurity who is having a hard time holding his head above water. My guess would be that this person perceived something a particular way, then that something occurred completely opposite or to the contrary of his perceptions, and that cross over almost broke his ankles. If this is the case, based off what you've said, trying to get to the root issue of what didn't go the way he expected it to--usually a perceived lack of answered prayer from God--and then try to equip him to see that his expectation or his prayer was perhaps amiss, and that he needs to stop binding God to things God never promised.

But above all, whatever the case may actually be, pray and fast as you are able. Sharpen your understanding of the Holy Scriptures and the pre-eminent doctrines of Christ. Don't let the front distract you from getting down to what's really going on.

James 5:19-20,

Quote:
19. Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20. Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
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