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  #11  
Old 02-24-2022, 10:09 AM
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Re: A closer look at John 3:6

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Originally Posted by shag View Post
Perhaps because he was simply only drawing the difference between physical birth(water) and spiritual birth(Spirit infilling). Not between physical birth, and water and spirit birth.
Especially if water baptism is said to be a burial, instead of said to be a birth (ROM. 6:4)
I think you may have just answered your own question.

Jesus said you must be born again.

As Romans describes, the old man must die to be reborn. Water baptism would then be the completion of the old man dying (his burial). Spirit baptism would then be beginning of the new man living.
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Old 02-26-2022, 01:00 AM
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Re: A closer look at John 3:6

Something I wrote elsewhere:

__________________________________________

The short answer is that water as used in John 3:5 is a metonym for blood, particularly, the blood of Jesus.

It is important to note that the text of John 3:5, and really, the entire discourse Jesus had with Nicodemus coupled with the narrative that follows in the rest of the chapter, is buttressed on the one side by the story of the changing of water into wine from John 2:11, where the event actually took place, and then on the other side, by John 4:46, where the event is recalled and referenced.

As is commonly known, wine is traditionally made from grape juice, sometimes referred to as the "blood of the grape" (See, e.g. Genesis 49:11 and Deuteronomy 32:14).

Indeed, there is a very graphic comparison to human blood and the vat or winepress where grapes are stomped as a means of releasing the juice from the pulp, as seen in Revelation 19:15 (KJV):

Quote:
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Note, however, that just before we are given this startling image of the Messiah trampling the nations in the fury and wrath of God, we are told that His garments are, metaphorically speaking "baptized" in blood.

This shows another connection to the juice of the grape, as being turned into wine, as a symbol for human blood.

In 1 John 5:6-8, we have the following testimony regarding Jesus:

- That Jesus Christ came by water and blood (and not merely by water, but by water and blood)
- That the Spirit bears witness of this fact
- That the Spirit is truth
- That there are three which bear witness in heaven: The Father, the Word, and the Spirit*
- That there are three which bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood

Here then we see a connection between the Holy Spirit, that which Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again of, and the water, which Jesus likewise told Nicodemus he must also be born again of, and the blood of Jesus, which makes all of this possible (See, e.g. 1 Peter 1, noting in particular verses 18 and 19, which mention the redemption that occurred through the blood of Christ, and verse 23, which mentions being born again, just as John 3:3-5 details, by the word (or logos) of God, a common, even dominant theme of the Johannine Corpus).

Finally, note John 19:34 (KJV):

34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

This is a reference to a medical condition called hemothorax, caused by the flagellation. After death red blood cells begin to separate from the plasma (For an explanation, see: https://aleteia.org/2019/06/22/a-doc...m-jesus-heart/).

Here, it is important to note that plasma is approximately 92% water. So, after the red blood cells sank to the bottom of the hemothorax, when the spear was thrust in then removed from Christ's side, they drained first, followed by the plasma, which is to say, the liquid component of human blood, which is nearly totally water.

In conclusion, Jesus, using metonymy, told Nicodemus that he must be born again of water (that is to say, Christ's blood), and the Spirit, or that which causes the blood of the Lord Jesus to sanctify us/make us holy unto God (1 Peter 1:2).

*I am aware of the pros and cons of the Comma Johanneum debate, and while it is important and to a degree relevant, it doesn't have any particular bearing on the point I am making, that water in John 3:5 is a metonym for blood.
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Old 02-27-2022, 10:00 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: A closer look at John 3:6

Votivesoul, you have good points and also good observations. Thank you for sharing
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Old 02-28-2022, 02:32 AM
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Re: A closer look at John 3:6

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Votivesoul, you have good points and also good observations. Thank you for sharing
You're welcome.
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