Death defeated at resurrection or not defeated

[mfblume]

I just thought of something for everyone that believes the resurrection is not going to be physical.

Jesus is going to have every enemy put under his feet when the ends takes place. And The Last Enemy is death. Paul said, in 1st Corinthians chapter 15, that resurrection occurs when death is put under his feet.

If the resurrection leaves our physical bodies behind and dead, and out from within those physical bodies comes an invisible spiritual body that separate and distinct from the dead body, then we've got a big problem. Paul distinctly said that Resurrection can only occur with something if it has first died, after having lived previously.

1 Cor 15: 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Resurrection means something is given life the second time, or resurged. When did the spiritual body that's invisible and comes out of the Dead physical body ever die before it came out? According to what I can assume in the non-physical resurrection doctrine, they believe that the spiritual, invisible body that's inside of us was always alive and never did die. When the resurrection occurs, what Paul said must occur is that something that did die is in a state of death, and comes alive again a second time.

If the spiritual body had not previously lived and died, then death is not defeated in that sort of rising. Death can only be defeated when it killed something, and that something is affected while being dead and then made alive again to never die any more.

So, the non-physical resurrection doctrine that says that which dies stays dead, does not answer the need for resurrection to defeat death. The way that the last enemy of death is put under Jesus' feet is by the way of the resurrection bringing a second life that is immortal to that which death had slain.

If the only body that dies is left to remain dead, while another distinct and separate body rises instead, then death was not in any way defeated.

[Carl]

Brother Blume, this is why some of us do not adhere to the immortal soul belief as well.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Carl

Brother Blume, this is why some of us do not adhere to the immortal soul belief as well.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Carl

Brother Blume, this is why some of us do not adhere to the immortal soul belief as well.

Let's clarify. That which is resurrected to live again is that which had previously died. In order for the PERSON to resurrect, the PERSON must be dead and then brought back to life. If the body is the only thing that dies, then the body - not the whole person - is the only thing that resurrects.

If one says "the soul was dead in sins" then the soul resurrected at conversion. Which means the person is resurrected twice? Two resurrections for the saint? Yet the Bible speaks of the saint resurrecting on a particular day, a single event in which the PERSON resurrects.

Conversion and regeneration being likened to a resurrection is just that - LIKE an actual resurrection. A person who is "dead in sins" is not literally ontologically DEAD. They are under sentence of death, "dead man walking" in other words. The sinner - who is dead in sins - must die in baptism, die to sin. Yet the person has been alive before and during and after all these deaths. Thus it can be seen that such "quickenings" are not the type of quickening Paul speaks about in 1 Cor 15. They are called quickening, being made alive again, etc by way of close analogy. A man can kill you at golf, but there's no need to call the funeral parlour yet, nor will he be wanted for homicide.

Resurrection involves the PERSON. And a living person is a union of spirit and flesh, producing a living soul. When spirit and flesh separate, the person dies. When spirit is REunited with flesh, the person lives again, or is "resurrected".

Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1 Corinthians:15:18

If the resurrection ONLY involves the body, then only Christ's body was raised. If then "there is no resurrection", that simply means there is no resurrection of the body. The saints would just be in heaven with their soul-bodies or whatever is imagined the dead have. But Paul says if Christ isn't raised, and there is no resurrection, then those Christians who have died are DONE, gone, perished. They are not floating in heaven, etc. The continuation beyond this mortal life is all dependent upon RESURRECTION. Without resurrection, YOU WON'T BE GOING ANYWHERE. So clearly resurrection is not limited to the body itself. Otherwise Paul had no argument.

[mfblume]

Paul's words in 1 cor 15 is speaking of the body resurrecting, not spirit, soul and body.

And 2 Cor 5 says Paul was confident about absence from the body to be present with the Lord denying soul sleep, and death of a saint in spirit, soul and body upon "death".

[mfblume]

But this thread is for those who think the physical body is not raised. Please do not distract from that. We can discuss the other in a new thread.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But this thread is for those who think the physical body is not raised. Please do not distract from that. We can discuss the other in a new thread.

Well, the resurrection of the actual body is necessary for the resurrection of the person. If the body isn't raised, the dead in Christ have gone into the ether never to return.

But we will wait and see if the no body in the resurrection folks will interact with your thread.

[loran adkins]

It seams that some stop at the teaching of Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15. Paul says that there are those that ask what body rises and Paul said that God gives it a body as he pleases. And the seed that is planted is not what comes from the ground when planted, a new plant comes from the seed. There is not anything that even resembles the seed when the new plant comes from the ground.

So tell me again what we are going to be like in the resurrection?

Also explain to me what Jesus meant when he told Mary that he is the resurrection and that whoever believes in him shall never die.

[Armapeet.Singh]

The death that we are resurrected from is spiritual.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

The work of the cross was to resurrect us from our dead state to a living state. A state away from our sins.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures:

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Here we see that the resurrection from the dead is absolutely tied into our redemption from from our dead state and our deliverance from our sins.

We partake of the death through repentance, the burial through baptism, and the resurrection through the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

The doctrine of the physical is the doctrine of the pharisees.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by loran adkins

It seams that some stop at the teaching of Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15. Paul says that there are those that ask what body rises and Paul said that God gives it a body as he pleases. And the seed that is planted is not what comes from the ground when planted, a new plant comes from the seed. There is not anything that even resembles the seed when the new plant comes from the ground.

So tell me again what we are going to be like in the resurrection?

Also explain to me what Jesus meant when he told Mary that he is the resurrection and that whoever believes in him shall never die.

Paul said IT is sown a natural body, and IT is raised a spiritual body. That which is raised is the thing that was planted, but changed. If you plant an apple seed, you don't raise up a carrot, you raise up an apple tree. And the seed you planted is not still there in the ground once the apple tree pop ups.

Jesus left no body in the tomb when He raised. Nobody else has yet been resurrected like He was, because their bodies are still in the grave.

We will be like Him in the resurrection.

He said "He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.." He was talking to Martha, not Mary. She said she was sure Lazarus would rise up the last day, He did not correct her except to point HE was the resurrection and the life. To make the point that He raises the dead, and faith in Him is what brings eternal life.