End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

[Sister Alvear]

How I handle situations in Brazil? Very few things I would have to handle...My son in the pastor of the headquarters church and his wife is the missionary...I am mostly a decoration on the wall of by gone days...there is nothing for me to handle...I help in Bible schools and seminars and retreats...do what I am asked to do....I oversee no churches so what would there be for me to handle? I am not the ladies leader although I do go to their meetings...
I used to help building churches because I know how to do and figure out the iron work...but too old for that now...
Guess I could start an old folks ministry...I might fit in there best...lol...I do like the soup kitchen but I am not over that either...so ....I just don't have much to handle...other than being a spare tire whenever someone does not show up to do their job....today I did cook some of the food for the retreat...I seemed to handle that quite well as I love to cook....

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Pliny

I have to wonder if this is how you handle situations in Brazil. I have to wonder if you teach women to rise up against their husbands if the y disagree with them. I have to wonder if you teach them to tell all the other women about that disagreement, to be public about it. I have to wonder if you teach them to purposely provoke their husbands by telling them what they are gonna do and if they don't like it they can go to Calvary and watch Christ die. This is certainly what you have done here. Led a group of women against the ministry. You have helped them in their rejection of ministerial authority. So I have to wonder what and how you teach the ladies of Brazil...

JMHO but you go too far here. Sis. Alvear has done NO such thing. She has presented her thoughts on this topic just as others have and might I add she has done so with a kind spirit.

[Dordrecht]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

JMHO but you go too far here. Sis. Alvear has done NO such thing. She has presented her thoughts on this topic just as others have and might I add she has done so with a kind spirit.

[Sister Alvear]

Well, I do hope my spirit is always right...you folks pray for me....thanks...

[Roxanne Murphy]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Again the CONTEXT of this thread has been dealing with women preachers. In response to THAT context posts have been made showing it is impossible for a woman to be a bishop or a deacon for that matter.

But this supposed 'disqualification' has been extended to include the 5 fold ministry. And, as I have mentioned twice now, but it has been conveniently ignored, is that the qualifications for a bishop include being a MARRIED man, not just a man.

So I say once again, either be honest and say that ONLY married men can be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, or give up the whole 'only a man can preach' position because as it is being defined by its supporters, it is based on a dishonest pick and choose 'theology'.

[Roxanne Murphy]

Originally Posted by Pliny

You have no idea what you are talking about. An emotional appeal is when a person appeals to "emotion" to argue their point. This has been done repeatedly by ladies on this thread. Whether they be personal anecdotes or other they are an appeal to emotion. Politicians do this a lot.

Now for the 2nd part of your post:
(Num 12:2 KJV) And they said, Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the LORD heard it.

They, that would be Miriam and Aaron, were usurping the role of Moses and said "hath Lord indeed ONLY spoken by Moses? Miriam was saying I don't have to listen to Moses because bless God I can hear from God myself! Indeed has God ONLY spoken to Moses?!?! He has spoken to me too; therefore, there is no need to listen to him. Due to the judgment of God falling upon Miriam and not Aaron I believe Miriam was the ring leader. Miriam was in fact usurping authority.

This is a danger we must all contend with. As God uses us it is easy to feel like we don't need a preacher. After all does God speak to the preacher alone? Tragically many have gotten cross wise because they believe they know better than the Moses God has placed in our lives.

So it was then okay for Aaron to say these things, speak against the man of God?

And let us look a little more closely at this story, shall we?

And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
[2] And they said, Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the LORD heard it.
[3] (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)
[4] And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.
[5] And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
[6] And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
[7] My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
[8] With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
[9] And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.
[10] And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.
[11] And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.
[12] Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.
[13] And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.

God told both Aaron and Miriam that they were wrong to speak against Moses, AND, Aaron also acknowledged that he was just as guilty as his sister was. I believe that the ONLY reason why Aaron did not also end up with leprosy was that he was so quick to have a repentant heart, and that this spared him and his sister from a judgment that was fatal. Instead, Miriam had to bear the shame of having been touched by leprosy for a week, then the whole congregation was able to move on.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

JMHO but you go too far here. Sis. Alvear has done NO such thing. She has presented her thoughts on this topic just as others have and might I add she has done so with a kind spirit.

Thank you for your thoughts. My purpose earlier was to promote thought. Apparently I failed to in that endeavor. I will try to expound a little here and hopefully it will be understood.

It has been said that it is lonely at the top. The reason for this is that persons in authority must be careful not to cross lines. In the military there are rules against fraternizing with the troops. The reason is that it can hurt good order and discipline. For example the commander may give a controversial order. If just one of the junior officers goes to the ranks and tells them how ignorant the CO is then the order and discipline of the unit is compromised. That effectually diminishes the ability of the unit to complete its mission.

That same officer may discuss it with other officers but at the end of the day that officer must follow his/her orders. In other words there is a time and place for the junior officer to discuss the order. It is out of place for that officer to go to the rank and file and provoke controversy. Especially in another unit.

This is how I see it. It has passed beyond the point of simple discussion to one of provoking. Here is an example post:

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

tonight Bro. Alvear and I have been asked to be speakers at a marriage seminar...so the anti's would have a problem with that too.....
I have no problem with helping anyone...be it woman or man....black or white, rich or poor...
If you have a problem with a woman helping a soul you need to go back to Calvary and watch Him die...

All preachers should recognize that there is a time and place to deal with controversial topics. If the "rank and file" are discussing them then it behooves the ministers to be careful they do not provoke more controversy. Indeed they should be careful what controversies they support with saints that have another pastor. By supporting a controversial issue the minister could be compromising what the other persons pastor is trying to accomplish. That goes for preachers wives as well because they are looked up to and given honor, rightly so. I hope that makes sense. My post was not intended to offend rather it was intended to promote thinking. I expected it to be understood and it wasn't.

On AFF there are people representative of "other units". People that go to other churches that have pastors. As a person in authority appropriate care must be taken. The topic of "women preachers" is indeed a controversial topic.

So I will ask this question. How would Bro. Alvear feel about a minister in this country talking to his saints in Brazil about a controversial subject and have that minister take an opposite stand against him?

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Roxanne Murphy

But this supposed 'disqualification' has been extended to include the 5 fold ministry. And, as I have mentioned twice now, but it has been conveniently ignored, is that the qualifications for a bishop include being a MARRIED man, not just a man.

So I say once again, either be honest and say that ONLY married men can be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, or give up the whole 'only a man can preach' position because as it is being defined by its supporters, it is based on a dishonest pick and choose 'theology'.

I will not give up my position and the context of this thread is concerning women preachers. The qualification is clear - the husband of 1 wife which demands that a woman cannot be a bishop or a deacon. And no it is not based upon a dishonest pick and choose theology. It is based upon the clear teaching of God's word.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Roxanne Murphy

So it was then okay for Aaron to say these things, speak against the man of God?

And let us look a little more closely at this story, shall we?

And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
[2] And they said, Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the LORD heard it.
[3] (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)
[4] And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.
[5] And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
[6] And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
[7] My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
[8] With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
[9] And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.
[10] And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.
[11] And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.
[12] Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.
[13] And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.

God told both Aaron and Miriam that they were wrong to speak against Moses, AND, Aaron also acknowledged that he was just as guilty as his sister was. I believe that the ONLY reason why Aaron did not also end up with leprosy was that he was so quick to have a repentant heart, and that this spared him and his sister from a judgment that was fatal. Instead, Miriam had to bear the shame of having been touched by leprosy for a week, then the whole congregation was able to move on.

And now you have placed words in my mouth. Where did I say it was okay for Aaron to usurp the authority of Moses? I didn't. Look at my post. I said:
They, that would be Miriam and Aaron, were usurping the role of Moses". I find it interesting that only Miriam was plagued with leprosy. You may be right about Aaron being quick to repent. We don't know. It is just as likely that Miriam was the ringleader and that was the reason why she became leprous though I do believe you are right about the repentance of Aaron. I am sure it saved him some trouble. Either way the point still stands, Miriam was usurping the authority of the office of Moses.

Once again I think it behooves us all to remember that when God uses us that we must not think to highly of ourselves and seek to usurp authority, whether male or female. Hopefully we can agree on this.

[Roxanne Murphy]

Originally Posted by Pliny

I will not give up my position and the context of this thread is concerning women preachers. The qualification is clear - the husband of 1 wife which demands that a woman cannot be a bishop or a deacon. And no it is not based upon a dishonest pick and choose theology. It is based upon the clear teaching of God's word.

But if you do not ALSO demand that a bishop or deacon must be MARRIED, then it is selective theology. The apostle was specific in this verse, when he could simply have said that a bishop must be a man, he instead said "husband of one wife". That is very clear and very defining, but this is not taught so. WHY NOT?????