“Elevating Pastors”

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by n david

A Pastor isn't a gatekeeper to your salvation, either.

When you're told you cant be saved without one they are....

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

When you're told you cant be saved without one they are....

They are for the perfecting of the saints, tell me how you can be saved without the elder-ship or presbytery.

Did the churches of Asia in the scripture have pastors?

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

They are for the perfecting of the saints, tell me how you can be saved without the elder-ship or presbytery.

Did the churches of Asia in the scripture have pastors?

So, you agree with my original point that they are the gatekeeper to salvation?

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

So, you agree with my original point that they are the gatekeeper to salvation?

You may need to define "gatekeeper to salvation" for me.

[n david]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

When you're told you cant be saved without one they are....

1) Let's read the scripture where this belief originates:

""For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"" Romans 10:13-15

2) Go back to verse 1: ""Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved""

Paul, writing to the church in Rome, stating his "heart's desire and prayer" is for Israel to be saved.

Now go forward to verse 13-15 where he writes the hows of being saved, including "how shall they hear without a preacher."

3) Paul is not describing a gatekeeper (n. "a person or thing that controls access to something.") He's simply stating a fact that, especially in that period of time, one wouldn't hear without a preacher -- not that you can't be saved without a pastor.

How can Israel call on someone in whom they haven't believed; how can they believe if they haven't heard; how can they hear unless there's someone giving the message; how can someone give the message unless they be sent ...

4) Most misinterpret this verse to be "you can't be saved without a pastor." That's not what Paul says.

[coksiw]

Are Pastors the only ones that preach and teach?

You need an assembly, you need to meet with brothers and sisters so they can help you and you can help them to grow, correct, etc...
And naturally, an assembly will have some leaders to lead as the Spirit indicates.
It is not a pastor what you need per se, it is an assembly to go to, so you can be corrected and mentored by elders and brothers and sisters in general; and also for the organized work to make disciples.

In my opinion saying "you need a pastor to be saved" is taking it too far, because it is centralizing all your salvation on one imperfect man, which is actually the wrong emphasis and the wrong conclusion, because it is not looking at the big picture. It even smell like self-serving to me.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

So, you agree with my original point that they are the gatekeeper to salvation?

In the Old Testament the priest was a sort of bridge between God and man. It is taught and a lot of people, especially preachers, seem to believe that the OT priest is a type of the NT pastor. This doctrine is false, but it has led to a lot of confusion in the church and among the ministry specifically.

Many pastors believe that they are the go-between from the pew to the throne. They fail to realize that we can go boldly ourselves to the throne of grace.

The Levitical priesthood was a type of the church, it was not a type of the pastor. The high priest is Jesus. The misunderstanding and misapplication of the type of the Levitical priesthood creates a division in the church that should never be. This division draws a line between the pastor/platform/pulpit and the pew/laity. This division defies the teaching of Jesus that in order be the greatest, you must be the least. How can you be a servant from an elevated position?

1Pet.2

[9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Peter was talking to the church. WE are a royal priesthood. Jesus is the high priest. Whether we be in the pulpit or the pew, we are all precious parts of the same body. We are all part of the bride of Christ.

So if we elevate a pastor above perhaps a widow, we are in error. The pastor should correct this error. That is the function that the pastor, after all.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

In the Old Testament the priest was a sort of bridge between God and man. It is taught and a lot of people, especially preachers, seem to believe that the OT priest is a type of the NT pastor. This doctrine is false, but it has led to a lot of confusion in the church and among the ministry specifically.

Many pastors believe that they are the go-between from the pew to the throne. They fail to realize that we can go boldly ourselves to the throne of grace.

The Levitical priesthood was a type of the church, it was not a type of the pastor. The high priest is Jesus. The misunderstanding and misapplication of the type of the Levitical priesthood creates a division in the church that should never be. This division draws a line between the pastor/platform/pulpit and the pew/laity. This division defies the teaching of Jesus that in order be the greatest, you must be the least. How can you be a servant from an elevated position?

1Pet.2

[9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Peter was talking to the church. WE are a royal priesthood. Jesus is the high priest. Whether we be in the pulpit or the pew, we are all precious parts of the same body. We are all part of the bride of Christ.

So if we elevate a pastor above perhaps a widow, we are in error. The pastor should correct this error. That is the function that the pastor, after all.

And that links to the teaching of the tithe entailed to the pastors as the new levites... wrong teachings have more consequences that we may think, and they create stumbling blocks.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by coksiw

And that links to the teaching of the tithe entailed to the pastors as the new levites... wrong teachings have more consequences that we may think, and they create stumbling blocks.

You are absolutely correct.

[JamesGlen]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

JamesGlen said; My teenage daughter recently asked me, “daddy, do you think pastors are elevated too much?”

It has been my experience that these types of question don't just pop into the minds of teenagers... If there was no fear of rebuke or questioning of "where did this question come from, and who have you been talking to or hearing from" these questions would never be asked.

not starting a fight but that aint setting well.

Originally Posted by n david

I thought the same.

I can understand why you would ask.

I asked her and what made her ask me that, if she had spoken w others after church about it(she said no), and she spent about 10 mins trying to explain her thoughts. In short she brought it up from that nights visiting minister, how he mentioned several times the term man of God, referring to our pastor....and recapping-here is kind of the just of what she said “how far do we go with that w him being like the voice if God in our lives...for example isn’t the pastors daughter a voice in our lives? Or people like sister Hosely(she’s an elderly lady in our church) she’s very wise....I don’t know, like people sometimes seem like they don’t think our pastor makes mistakes like us....aren’t we all prone to make mistakes now and then....and can’t other people like elders in the church be Gods voice in our lives?”
That wasn’t exactly verbatim, but that was the just of it. My wife and I listened to her try to explain her thoughts and why, for about ten minutes, and tried to discuss it w her.

She is 14, almost 15, this will be her 2nd year taking some college classes, (we homeschool), she has memorized over 3400 bible verses in her life(427 this past year). She is a thinker, and quite intelligent. She mentioned how there’s a few people that don’t seem to respect a pastors voice or wisdom, yet others seem to esteem him too highly as the only voice of God and like he’s practically flawless.

Anyway, that’s why she asked. Primarily from some of the content of a visiting minister. I had driven to the church house separately from working late, when we all got back home afterward, she brought it up.

The short of her thinking seemed to be, how far does it go with elevating pastors?