left upci yr ago and still messed up

[ILG]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

To say that "Our church is ultra conservative and WE don't have any sort of 'holiness policy!'" is really no different than the leader of an extreme cult saying 'ANYONE can leave. We don't have a lock on our front door!'. Both may be technically correct statements but they are also very very wrong.

I attended a very conservative church during the 80's and the pastor never came over to search through our closets or dresser drawers but boy of boy, if you ever did anything that was known to be against church teaching you WOULD hear about it from the pulpit along with a story or three of someone who disobeyed the pastor and either died or felt the Holy Ghost leave them, or usually both.

Yep.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

I just want to clarify - people who are just coming in to the church and don't adhere to the standard are treated MUCH differently than those who DID adhere to the standard and then stopped.

In my experience, that is.

I will agree with that. Further, I know of many who have gone to a "standards preaching" church for decades without being mistreated. It quite likely will limit the involvement as far as teaching and leadership, but does not automatically threaten their status as a brother or sister.

For those who claim they were in an abusive church where tongue screws and human torches were the norm... I am sorry. I can't relate, but am sorry they were forced to endure pain.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I will agree with that. Further, I know of many who have gone to a "standards preaching" church for decades without being mistreated. It quite likely will limit the involvement as far as teaching and leadership, but does not automatically threaten their status as a brother or sister.

For those who claim they were in an abusive church where tongue screws and human torches were the norm... I am sorry - I can't relate.

Well, we all know that words can be just as painful, and leave a much longer lasting scar then any (OK, most) physical abuse. And no, I never heard of a church that practiced any form of physical punishment (yes, I know you were being sarcastic).

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I will agree with that. Further, I know of many who have gone to a "standards preaching" church for decades without being mistreated. It quite likely will limit the involvement as far as teaching and leadership, but does not automatically threaten their status as a brother or sister.

For those who claim they were in an abusive church where tongue screws and human torches were the norm... I am sorry. I can't relate, but am sorry they were forced to endure pain.

For me it was never standards that were an issue, at least as far as following them and living them....it was the inconsistencies that bothered me and the inability or unwillingness of anyone to explain it.

The abuse I suffered had more to do with people's refusal to deal with issues that should have been dealt with. I guess standards were a part of that but largely it was much bigger issues than that.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

My church is "holiness" yet we have a LARGE number of women who do not live the standard as it is taught. Good grief, we have multiple women who wear jewelry and makeup to service every week who are on our greeter staff. Our choir has a number of women who clearly cut their hair or dye it.

They aren't made to feel likeless of a member. They are brought in adn made to feel like part of the church. Over time they will hopfully choose to live what is taught and preached. If they do not, they will still be part of the church.

I don't know where some of you have been that you have this idea that peopel are made to feel like outcasts for not living the standard, or what year you thinkit is. I understand that sort of thing ran rampant 30-40 years ago, but I've been in the church for nearly 20 years and have never seen or heard of it in my years around the church.

As to going where God leads, I agree. We should Go where God tells us. As to this thread though, apparently God stopped saying a word to the poster as soon as they left the church. If God spoke telling them to leave a church, then don't you think He would have continued to speak to them after they left considering just how hard and traumatic leaving a church can be?

Maybe God wasn't telling them to leave. Maybe they simply felt uncomfortable and bailed instead of telling their Pastor they didn't agree with standards, but still wanted to be in church.

We are not getting the whoel story b/c it is NOT adding up.

I have been in the church long enough to know that generally the attack on the standard is rarely the true reason that a person leaves. Many times they have stopped praying, worshipping, and participating in the service. After this comes a disgruntled attitude, bitterness, and attacking the people and standards of the church. These are things that I have seen with my own eyes.

Many times, those who have an issue with the standards of the church from the beginning will only attend services, but will not actually pray through. They do not as a rule run the standard down, at least not to saints who are committed to God and the church. They generally (if they are going to attack the standards) will find those who are cold and carnal and sway them.

The issue is almost never the standard, but rather carnality or a love for the things in this world. I have yet to see this pattern be too far amiss.

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

You guys can claim this all you want, but you know as well as I do, if you belong to a UPC or other "holiness" church, and let's say your a woman who walks in with her hair cut, and some jewelry and makeup on, you WILL be treated differently. Most likely like a pariah, or at the very least a backslider.

So, it's easy to say there are no "holiness police" out there, but there are....they are just undercover......like the holiness CIA

And, guess what? Before you jump down my throat, let me clarify....I'm not saying that's a bad thing. What makes Apostolic churches successful (at least in their own eyes) is uniformity. Everyone is dressing the same way, we can all tell who is "holy" and living "right", we have a platform standard that we measure you by so we'll know if you can sing in the choir, etc. (Ironically, on most of those checklists, you only find things relating to the outward appearance, but that's neither here nor there for this discussion).

So, my thought is - if you don't feel led to live by the standards the church has set forth, then you should leave. If you decide to stay, then you should honor the culture of the church and live by those standards. Don't cause confusion, don't cause dissension, and don't create chaos.

Just my two cents!

Again, this has never been the case with any of the churches that I have been in. This includes both those who have been in the world and are present for the first time, those who are attendees only, and those who have backslid. My own sister has walked through the doors of the church fully backslid, and we never made an issue of her apparel. This is an excuse by those who are under conviction for avoiding returning to church.

Having been used in more than one church and at an occasional function, many times the pastor is the one to verify the selection of a person to a certain role, and that person meets what the pastor desires in prayer, worship, and other areas of living. I grew up very closely associated with church leaders, and the way that the selection process was done. There is much more that goes into picking people for leadership roles than the neckline, hemline, and sleeve length.

I would never jump down a person's throat unless I was attempting to clear it so that they could breathe.

[AreYouReady?]

Well...all I got to say, Jay, is that since you are still quite young, you still have much to learn. Come to the rural areas of the USA and you will live some learnin.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Well...all I got to say, Jay, is that since you are still quite young, you still have much to learn. Come to the rural areas of the USA and you will live some learnin.

I lived in rural communities, and Dad has preached in them. Not all of them by any means, and there are bad apples in every barrel. However, I have known several fine pastors who were in rural communities. I have also known men who some might describe as fine, but were something else entirely.

[AreYouReady?]

What is "rural" to you?

[Jay]

Far western Kansas would be considered rural. Towns of as few as 5000 people tops. Maybe as high as 15,000 in a single community with no other sizable poplation centers for nearly an hour in any direction. I have also been to small towns in Texas and Illinois.

[AreYouReady?]

How long at a time have you lived in these "rural" areas?