Dispensationalism in America

[Amanah]

Introduction to Dispensationalism

[Carl]

Good history lesson. It's interesting how Zionism and Dispensationalism both gained momentum at the same time.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Carl

Good history lesson. It's interesting how Zionism and Dispensationalism both gained momentum at the same time.

That's because dispensationalism is a marketing campaign for Zionism, directed at Christian evangelicals.

[Esaias]

It seems that this teaching concerning the Jews (dispensationalism) was originated, or at least popularised, by Edward Irving, the founder of the Catholic Apostolic Church in the early 1800s. Irving of course was an influence on Darby (founder of dispensationalism). Irving is an interesting character. He was apparently funded and promoted by Henry Drummond, Jr, who it turns out was a very powerful and influential Scottish banker (his family loaned King George the money to pay for the Hessian mercenaries the British used during the War of Independence, and those Hessians comprised about 50% of the British military forces in America). The Drummond family helped get the Rothschild family going in the international banking business, apparently. While the Drummonds loaned the British crown the money to pay for the Hessian soldiers, the Hessians were ruled by King George's cousin who's banker was Mayer Rothschild. The Rothschilds at the time were also buying textiles to supply uniforms to the Hessian mercenaries during the War, and the Drummond family apparently was also heavily involved in the Scottish textile industry.

The Drummonds were also allied with the family who's most important member was the guy in charge of the British payroll for the soldiers fighting in America. Can't remember his name at the moment. In other words, the Drummonds and the Rothschilds were in business together. The Rothschilds were also interested in starting what would become known as Zionism.

Zionism was first really being spearheaded in London by the "Society for the Promotion of Christianity Among the Jews", aka the "Jews' society of London". The Drummonds were involved in that organisation. And, Henry Drummond supported and financed Edward Irving, and even supplied the moneys to start Irving's Catholic Apostolic Church. Drummond was named one of the "12 Apostles" of the CAC.

Irving's main contribution to religion seems to be his doctrine that "earthly things belong to the Jews, and heavenly things belong to the church" (the old Jew vs Gentile/Israel vs the Church dichotomy made famous by dispensationalism), and his doctrine that all the churches were becoming entirely apostate and would be totally destroyed by God's wrath. Once the christian church had been destroyed, God's attention would turn to the Jews, re-establish them back in Palestine, and elevate them to rule the world. He also seems to have contributed to early pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.

Apparently, John Darby attended meetings in the early 1800s at Henry Drummond's home, meetings devoted to hammering out prophetic interpretation (the original "Prophecy Club"). So there is a connection between Drummond and Darby, as well as between Irving and Drummond, and Irving and Darby (all three attended prophecy meetings at Drummond's home).

There is quite a bit of speculation that Drummond was also a Rosicrucian. Rosicrucianism and Zionism apparently go hand in hand.

So the ideas of dispensationalism, the dichotomy between Jews and Gentile Christians, the idea that Christians go to heaven but God gives the earth to the Jews, etc - what appears to be the major doctrinal foundation of modern opposition to Biblical theonomy - have their origins in a political and philosophical movement in the late 1700s and early 1800s, which itself gave birth to Zionism.

[Michael The Disciple]

I tried hard to listen to this recording. I actually did it. So the opposite of a dispensationlist is one who believes the world is going to get better and not worse?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I tried hard to listen to this recording. I actually did it. So the opposite of a dispensationlist is one who believes the world is going to get better and not worse?

I suppose the opposite of dispensationalism would be covenant theology?

[Amanah]

The gospel is the positive message that we are redeemed through the blood of Christ and seated with Him in heavenly places.
It is a victorious message.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and [b]prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, [c]both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints,
16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers:
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
18 the eyes of your [f]understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power
20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21 far above all principality[g] and [h]power and [i]might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,
23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

As a child growing up, I can remember people talking about just holding on till the rapture. Or not caring about the things of this life because we are leaving soon anyway.
I was told I was not going to grow up and have a family because the Rapture was going to take place in 1988. People would say things like "I will leave all this credit card debt for the devil"
And people constantly talked about how bad the world was getting according to current events and how that meant we were escaping it all very soon.

LEAVING ON MY MIND

THIS OLD HOUSE I'M LIVING IN, IS NEEDING REPAIR.
THE WINDOWS AND THE SHUTTERS ARE LETTING IN COLD COLD AIR.
I SAY TO MYSELF I'M GONNA FIX'M
WHEN I CAN GET THE TIME.
ALL I'M GETTING LATELY IS LEAVING ON MY MIND.

SO I GUESS WE SHOULD START LOOKING FOR,
ANOTHER PLACE TO LIVE.
SOME HOW I JUST DON'T GET EXCITED,
ABOUT THIS WORLD AND WHAT IT CAN GIVE.
FOR I COULDN'T CARE LESS, IF I COULD BYE IT ALL,
WITH A SOLITARY DIME,
WHAT IN THE WORLD, WOULD I DO WITH THE WORLD.
WHEN I'VE GOT LEAVING ON MY MIND.

LATELY ALL I'VE GOT IS LEAVING ON MY MIND.
AND IT SEEMS THAT'S ALL I THINK ABOUT,
MOST OF THE TIME. AND SOON,
VERY SOON I'LL LEAVE MY TROUBLES FAR BEHIND.
LATELY I'VE GOT LEAVING, LEAVING ON MY MIND.

[Aquila]

Yes, Amanah is right. Covenant Theology is essentially the other systematic theology that replaces the old Dispensationalist theology. While one can be a Futurist and believe in Covenant Theology, Covenant Theology tends to cater to the Preterist position. Most are Amillennialist, interpreting the Millennium symbolically as the church age, ending in great apostasy and global rebellion just because Christ returns, judges the wicked, and establishes the eternal Kingdom of God (not unlike Futurism's understanding of the church age prior to the Millennium). However, among the Covenant Theologians there are those who embrace what is called Post-Millennialism. Post-Millennialism not only believes that the Millennium is the current church age, but they teach that this "church age" will bring the Kingdom of God on earth, with progressive movements towards a more perfect world, culminating with the vast majority of the earth converted, at peace, and serving God... and then Jesus returns. Some in this camp are what are called Dominionists. The Dominionists believe that the positive changes in the world ("Christianization") will come primarily through spiritual renewal/revival. Within this camp you have the Kingdom Now movement and the Christian Reconstructionists. The Kingdom Now people believe that in the end, Christianity will be dominant, and Christians will be blessed with divine favor, provision, great wealth, and even political power. Many charismatic prosperity preachers fall into this category. Then there are the Christian Reconstructionists who believe that this transformation comes through not only spiritual renewal and the advancement of Christianity throughout all cultures, but the consolidated effort to "Christianize" society through political means. Their focus is restructuring society politically, with their goal being the re-establishment of the Old Testament Law of Moses throughout the world.

At least, the above is my understanding of this at this time.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Amanah

The gospel is the positive message that we are redeemed through the blood of Christ and seated with Him in heavenly places.
It is a victorious message.

As a child growing up, I can remember people talking about just holding on till the rapture. Or not caring about the things of this life because we are leaving soon anyway.
I was told I was not going to grow up and have a family because the Rapture was going to take place in 1988. People would say things like "I will leave all this credit card debt for the devil"
And people constantly talked about how bad the world was getting according to current events and how that meant we were escaping it all very soon.

The bolded part is me being confused. I'm confusing two separate incidents. When my Dad was stationed in Virginia, there were people saying that the Rapture was imminent and those who were children then would not reach adulthood. Then later, when I was older, another prediction was made, that we all remember, about 1988.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I suppose the opposite of dispensationalism would be covenant theology?

Covenant theology is a term used by several different groups, apparently.

I would say the opposite to dispensationalism would be Bible truth?