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  #41  
Old 05-21-2020, 11:11 AM
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

Exactly my position, Esaias. Thank-you.

Tithesmeister, my definition is from the GREEK, period. It is from the language in which the NT was originally written. English is a "translation", and not the original language chosen by God's initial inspiration.

I claim, according to the Greek, spiritual means supernatural or empowered and made possible by the SPIRIT and not NATURE. After all, and nobody has addressed this who disagrees with me yet, the contrast is made between the NATURAL and the SPIRITUAL. What NATURE causes to occur is what is NATURAL -- it's not talking about compositional material, what something is composed of like physical substance or not. It is talking about why something exists. Spirit or Nature?

And in all cases that I proposed, with spiritual meat, drink and water, my definitions stands true. NATURE could not create the Manna that was Israel's food in the Exodus. NATURE could not make a rock that spouts water. NATURE could not have water that comes from a rock. These things were caused supernaturally, or were spiritual. YES< they served as types of Jesus. But you are basing typology on the purpose of something that is physical being called "spiritual".

So,k in reality, you agree that PHYSICAL THINGS can be SPIRITUAL IF THEY ARE TYPES. Now you are putting yourself ina corner by limiting these definition of SPIRITUAL to that, seeing as it DOES NOT NOR CANNOT apply to everything called spiritual int eh same book.

You now have TWO definitions of SPIRITUAL.

Your Defintions:

1. NOT PHYSICAL as in 1 COr 15's bodies.

2. PHYSICAL BUT ONLY WHEN TYPES as in 1 Cor 10.

So, you do agree PHYSICAL things can be called SPIRITUAL if they serve as a TYPE.

Formerly you implied NOTHING physical can be spiritual when you asked me to prove my point that spiritual things can be very physical. After I showed you 1 Cor 10, YOU ADDED a definition to your NON-PHYSICAL. And you said a TYPE is a spiritual thing.

It seems you are saying anything to contradict me. IT SEEMS like that. Not saying it is the case. Just looks awfully fishy. You implied that no physical things are spiritual, but then you said the physical things in 1 COr 10 that are spiritual (contradicing yourself) are only so because they're types. So, you still say that I am wrong.

But to prove you are in error, as Esaias and I have now BOTH indicated, SPIRITUAL refers to people in 1 Cor 2. And they do not fall under EITHER of your 2 definitions. They are not types, and they are very physical.

So, it will be integrating to see ho you contradict my stance while being forced to add another definition to your understanding of spiritual when you explain to us why PEOPLE are called spiritual in 1 Cor 2. Is there a third definition you can find to explain that?

Thanks!

Meanwhile, my definitions stands for all three cases of chapter 2, chapter 10 and chapter 15. They are in effect BECAUSE of the power of the SPIRIT of God and NOT NATURE. Spiritual people are spiritual because they are being influenced by God's Spirit and MIND the things of the Spirit.

People who are led of the Spirit MIND spiritual things.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

SPIRITUAL means AFTER THE SPIRIT, not MADE UP OF SPIRIT MATERIAL. Bodies that are alive and immortal can be physical but are not made so BY NATURE. hence, natural bodies are not spiritual bodies.

Drink, food and rock can be very physical, but the SPIRIT causes them to do what they do, so they are OF THE SPIRIT, or SPIRITUAL.

PEOPLE who are of the Spirit are spiritual because they allow God to direct their lives and minds, but they are still physical people. MY SINGLE definition stands for all thee instances. But you have had to come up with a definition for drink, food and rock that does not work in 1 Cor 15. So, now what about 1 Cor 2? What is your definition for those instances in that chapter?
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Last edited by mfblume; 05-21-2020 at 11:16 AM.
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  #42  
Old 05-21-2020, 04:00 PM
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

Any thoughts on Greek reference, Esaias? You have a gift of explanation.
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  #43  
Old 05-21-2020, 05:52 PM
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Any thoughts on Greek reference, Esaias? You have a gift of explanation.
I was told I have the gift of blab...

The Greek clearly denotes a distinction, but the distinction isn't based on material vs immaterial. Rather, as you pointed out, it has to do with the source or purpose or function. Paul said those who have the Spirit are "not in the flesh" and he certainly didn't mean they were non material. The term flesh can mean the physical material body, but usually in the Bible it means the person directed by carnal, natural, unregenerate appetites and impulses.

Another thing, the word physical comes from physis which means "nature". The concept has more to do with origin than essence or substance.

The idea that Christ is no longer human goes beyond just material vs immaterial, though. If He is no longer human, what happened to the man? It would seem He died and was obliterated. It's a strange kind of resurrection unto eternal life that kills and obliterates you.
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  #44  
Old 05-22-2020, 03:54 PM
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

What are your thoughts on referencing Greek lexicons for any given word in the Bible? Should it be discouraged as Tithesmeister says, or encouraged?
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  #45  
Old 05-22-2020, 04:20 PM
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

1 cor 15

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Right there in ENGLISH, we are told the resurrected body is a spiritual body.

Now letís see the characteristics of the body of the risen Christ.

John 20
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The spiritual body can be touched physically...seems pretty obvious to me that the spiritual body does not mean non-physical.
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  #46  
Old 05-22-2020, 10:37 PM
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
What are your thoughts on referencing Greek lexicons for any given word in the Bible? Should it be discouraged as Tithesmeister says, or encouraged?
I think lexicons, like all dictionaries, are a valuable resource but just like dictionaries need to be handled with care. Many lexicons for Greek are biased theologically in subtle ways (as are many English dictionaries). So they aren't the absolute final authority, but they are AN authority. Since the Scriptures were given and transmitted by the apostles in Greek, I think it would be foolish to just ignore the Greek. English translations must be judged according their fidelity to the original language(s), after all.

But most issues actually can be discerned by the English KJV, in most cases, because the KJV is fascinatingly precise in so many ways. Unfortunately, a lot of folks aren't familiar enough with their own native English these days, let alone ancient Greek.
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  #47  
Old 05-22-2020, 10:37 PM
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
1 cor 15

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Right there in ENGLISH, we are told the resurrected body is a spiritual body.

Now letís see the characteristics of the body of the risen Christ.

John 20
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The spiritual body can be touched physically...seems pretty obvious to me that the spiritual body does not mean non-physical.
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  #48  
Old 05-23-2020, 12:12 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
1 cor 15

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Right there in ENGLISH, we are told the resurrected body is a spiritual body.

Now letís see the characteristics of the body of the risen Christ.

John 20
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The spiritual body can be touched physically...seems pretty obvious to me that the spiritual body does not mean non-physical.
Good stuff.
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  #49  
Old 05-27-2020, 03:58 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
1 cor 15

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in interruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
JESUS WAS RAISED in the TOMB, not the CLOUDS!

And after he was raised, as TGBTG noted, we read:

Quote:

Right there in ENGLISH, we are told the resurrected body is a spiritual body.

Now letís see the characteristics of the body of the risen Christ.

John 20
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The spiritual body can be touched physically...seems pretty obvious to me that the spiritual body does not mean non-physical.
Amen!

RAISING is what happened to Jesus in the TOMB. And that manner of RAISING is exactly what shall happen to us when we are raised, seeing as Paul went to great lengths at the start of 1 Cor 15 to show us how VISIBLE and PHYSICAL Jesus' raising was to show us the nature of OURS!
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  #50  
Old 05-30-2020, 07:53 PM
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Re: For those who think Jesus is not a man any lon

I guess they lost interest...
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