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  #71  
Old 06-11-2018, 03:20 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: SCOTUS Rulings

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  #72  
Old 06-11-2018, 07:06 PM
Jito463 Jito463 is offline
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Re: SCOTUS Rulings

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
That's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. He uses his artistic talents to create a unique product for the customer, but shouldn't be forced to use his talents against his wishes or beliefs. In the video, another print shop owned by lesbians came out in support of him, because even they recognized the direction things would go if he lost. He said he refused to print a shirt once that read "Homosexuality is a sin", imagine if the lesbians were forced by law to print something like that?

If he loses his case, that could very well happen. That's why I'm opposed to any of these "anti-discrimination" statutes, because all they do is elevate one group above another with special privileges, under the guise of "fairness".

His case is even worse, because now the federal government is getting involved when the courts have already ruled in his favor. That's a direct violation of his right to free speech (the courts long ago ruled that artistic expression is a form of speech).
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Sometimes hidden dangers spring on us suddenly. Those are out of our control. But when one can see the danger, and then refuses to arrest , all in the name of "God is in control", they are forfeiting God given, preventive opportunities.
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  #73  
Old 06-12-2018, 07:53 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: SCOTUS Rulings

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Originally Posted by Jito463 View Post
That's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. He uses his artistic talents to create a unique product for the customer, but shouldn't be forced to use his talents against his wishes or beliefs. In the video, another print shop owned by lesbians came out in support of him, because even they recognized the direction things would go if he lost. He said he refused to print a shirt once that read "Homosexuality is a sin", imagine if the lesbians were forced by law to print something like that?

If he loses his case, that could very well happen. That's why I'm opposed to any of these "anti-discrimination" statutes, because all they do is elevate one group above another with special privileges, under the guise of "fairness".

His case is even worse, because now the federal government is getting involved when the courts have already ruled in his favor. That's a direct violation of his right to free speech (the courts long ago ruled that artistic expression is a form of speech).
I completely agree with the T-shirt maker. Clearly his work is his artistic expression. I guess I never considered baking a wedding cake one's artistic expression. But, even though I'm criticized over it, I'm willing to reconsider the issue upon hearing new information, or information framed in a way that brings a new perspective.

It appears that these Christian business owners are truly trying to serve all, even if all they can do within their convictions is try and help the customers find another provider. It doesn't sound like these guys are just throwing people out of their shops.

I guess what I'm wondering now is, at what point does one's business cease to be artistic expression? For example, let's say a small private motel owned by Christians is the only motel with vacancies for many miles and a gay or lesbian couple stops in the dead of night needing a room because they are too tired to drive to the next town. Can the motel owner deny them a room? Will the gay couple be forced to sleep in their car? What if they aren't lesbians and they are just best friends on a road trip, and the motel owner thinks that they are lesbians?

Is there a line? If so, where is the line?
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  #74  
Old 06-17-2018, 12:52 AM
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jfrog jfrog is offline
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Re: SCOTUS Rulings

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
I completely agree with the T-shirt maker. Clearly his work is his artistic expression. I guess I never considered baking a wedding cake one's artistic expression. But, even though I'm criticized over it, I'm willing to reconsider the issue upon hearing new information, or information framed in a way that brings a new perspective.

It appears that these Christian business owners are truly trying to serve all, even if all they can do within their convictions is try and help the customers find another provider. It doesn't sound like these guys are just throwing people out of their shops.

I guess what I'm wondering now is, at what point does one's business cease to be artistic expression? For example, let's say a small private motel owned by Christians is the only motel with vacancies for many miles and a gay or lesbian couple stops in the dead of night needing a room because they are too tired to drive to the next town. Can the motel owner deny them a room? Will the gay couple be forced to sleep in their car? What if they aren't lesbians and they are just best friends on a road trip, and the motel owner thinks that they are lesbians?

Is there a line? If so, where is the line?
Should a business be forced to associate with anyone they don’t want to?
Should an individual be forced to associate with anyone they don’t want to?

Now suppose the person in question was a neo nazi skin head with swastikas tattooed on his neck looking for a room. Suppose it is a black or Jewish family owned hotel. Is it right that they must offer him a room?
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Last edited by jfrog; 06-17-2018 at 01:07 AM.
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  #75  
Old 06-18-2018, 10:25 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: SCOTUS Rulings

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Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
Should a business be forced to associate with anyone they don’t want to?
Should an individual be forced to associate with anyone they don’t want to?

Now suppose the person in question was a neo nazi skin head with swastikas tattooed on his neck looking for a room. Suppose it is a black or Jewish family owned hotel. Is it right that they must offer him a room?
Those are important questions.

There's really no way to know if someone is actually a neo-Nazi skin head. We can see if one is wearing swastikas tattooed on their body, but for all we know, he could be a pastor with a dark past filled with racial hatred. So, I don't see any criteria with which to judge with 100% accuracy here. And what if the motel/hotel in question is the only place for miles with a vacancy? Is this human being to sleep in their car out behind some seedy business somewhere? What if they are robbed or harmed on account of this? Is there any liability?

But you're post begs my question... Where is the line to be drawn? For example, what if a Muslim cashier refuses to ring up a person because they are buying an Easter ham. Sure, the next register might ring up the ham, but refuse to ring up the gift Bible, because that cashier is an atheist. lol

Or worse, what if a doctor refuses to treat a patient based on their sexuality or religion?

I know of a woman who has a condition that gives her excessively painful and bloody monthlies. Her doctor put her on birth control bills to regulate her cycles and bring things under control. However, the company she has worked for now for nearly 17 years just chose not to provide insurance that covers birth control pills on account of being "Catholic". But here's the rub, she's not Catholic. She's had coverage for this for some time. And now that coverage has ceased. In order to avoid the extremely painful and bloody menses, she now pays higher costs out of pocket. I know that Catholics oppose birth control, but in this case the birth control pills are not for birth control, but to help regulate a medical condition. I'm sure their family with manage. But I'm just showing how a blanket policy based on religious conviction can unjustly fall upon the shoulders of people who aren't even in violation of the companies principles.

Where should the line be drawn?

P.S.
I've noticed on my Facebook more and more instances of my Apostolic friends stating that they were given ............ service at restaurants, etc. Could it be that their standards make them look Christian, and people are becoming offended on account that "Christian" voters are taking so many unpopular candidates with unpopular policies over the top to win elections? What happens when Christians are invited to leave numerous establishments based on the very rules they are vehemently defending?

And why is our society, here in 2018, clamoring to re-establish discriminatory practices the previous generations of Americans fought so hard to reform? It's like we're shifting back to the 40's and 50's.

Last edited by Aquila; 06-18-2018 at 10:29 AM.
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  #76  
Old 06-20-2018, 12:00 AM
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jfrog jfrog is offline
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Re: SCOTUS Rulings

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Those are important questions.

There's really no way to know if someone is actually a neo-Nazi skin head. We can see if one is wearing swastikas tattooed on their body, but for all we know, he could be a pastor with a dark past filled with racial hatred. So, I don't see any criteria with which to judge with 100% accuracy here. And what if the motel/hotel in question is the only place for miles with a vacancy? Is this human being to sleep in their car out behind some seedy business somewhere? What if they are robbed or harmed on account of this? Is there any liability?
How about you take the situation at face value and worry less about obscuring the hypothetical scenario by asking how they know. Are you good blacks and jews having to board a neo Nazi under their hotel roof?

Quote:
But you're post begs my question... Where is the line to be drawn? For example, what if a Muslim cashier refuses to ring up a person because they are buying an Easter ham. Sure, the next register might ring up the ham, but refuse to ring up the gift Bible, because that cashier is an atheist. lol
Then the Muslim should be fired by the business for not ringing up a customer the business wants.

Quote:
Or worse, what if a doctor refuses to treat a patient based on their sexuality or religion?
You mean in an ER situation or just at a basic family practice? Because those are two very different things.

Quote:
I know of a woman who has a condition that gives her excessively painful and bloody monthlies. Her doctor put her on birth control bills to regulate her cycles and bring things under control. However, the company she has worked for now for nearly 17 years just chose not to provide insurance that covers birth control pills on account of being "Catholic". But here's the rub, she's not Catholic. She's had coverage for this for some time. And now that coverage has ceased. In order to avoid the extremely painful and bloody menses, she now pays higher costs out of pocket. I know that Catholics oppose birth control, but in this case the birth control pills are not for birth control, but to help regulate a medical condition. I'm sure their family with manage. But I'm just showing how a blanket policy based on religious conviction can unjustly fall upon the shoulders of people who aren't even in violation of the companies principles.
She can always find a different job if she dislikes her current employers pay and benefits package.

Quote:
Where should the line be drawn?
This is the most common liberal tactic. Talk about some arbitrary line and when it isn't immediately pinpointed then act like the position you are opposing is untenable.

The world works on principles, not lines. Principles will occasionaly be opposed to other principles even in the same philosophy. This is inevitable and is the origin of exceptions. (The opposition to any line).

Quote:
P.S.
I've noticed on my Facebook more and more instances of my Apostolic friends stating that they were given ............ service at restaurants, etc. Could it be that their standards make them look Christian, and people are becoming offended on account that "Christian" voters are taking so many unpopular candidates with unpopular policies over the top to win elections?
Since we are guessing, my guess would be that they are known to be poor tippers.

Quote:
What happens when Christians are invited to leave numerous establishments based on the very rules they are vehemently defending?
According to Matthew 5:10 they would be blessed

Quote:
And why is our society, here in 2018, clamoring to re-establish discriminatory practices the previous generations of Americans fought so hard to reform? It's like we're shifting back to the 40's and 50's.
No one is clamoring for discriminatory practices. What is being questioned is whether the lack of freedom of association has had unintended consequences on society.
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