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  #51  
Old 12-28-2021, 04:35 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
So you are saying Jesus and thief went to heaven the same day He died? Yes, that's my inference from the evidences in the Scriptures

And that dead people separated from their bodies still have laps, tongues, fingers, mouths? That's what it seems like. I haven't died to testify about the details, though, but that's what I interpret.

And that the unjust were also there? And both groups could communicate with each other? Yes, the adobe of the dead (Hades) had a separation between the just and the unjust but could still allow for communication. That may seem crazy and hard to explain the details but that's what the text says. That's what the story from Jesus describes.

And that the unjust are punished before being judged? They are being tormented in the prison. I don't know the source of the torment, since the Bible doesn't state it.


And that in Revelation there are some saints under a literal altar crying out for vengeance? Let me explain this. What I said is that the described event is the fictitious thing, carrying a symbolic meaning, but the elements of the event are drawn from elements in real life.

Pretty much everything in this text are elements drawn from real life, the story itself is not, as it is the symbolic thing:
Revelation 6:9-11 (NKJV) 9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

It is the same as parables: made up stories that are real to life, with elements (the entities and the things they do, and the places) that are from real life. If you incorporate elements from fantasy then it is no longer a parable: e.g. animals talking, humans with winds flying to stars, etc...
The Bible has those two, but in the case of Revelation, not everything is fantastic creatures and actions. Specifically in that text, "souls" are not drawn from fantasy, as they appear in many other parts of the Bible in genres that speak in clear terms to mean something that it is real to life.
Does that make sense?

I hope I'm not frustrating you . Just having an interesting conversation. I actually enjoyed reading your post as you have very good points and also good questions. For example, "why does God need to resurrect the unjust to judge them then?", and also the overall point that the resurrection of the just and the unjust is the key doctrine regarding afterlife, which is the opposite of what you see today in conversations and preachings.
No frustration! Just trying to understand.

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the event is a fictitious thing, but the elements are true to life (heat, thirst, comfort, water, fire, chasms, etc).
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  #52  
Old 12-28-2021, 05:08 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

What does the great gulf fixed between Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man in hell represent?
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  #53  
Old 12-28-2021, 05:09 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Also, what does the drop of water on the rich man’s tongue represent?
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  #54  
Old 12-28-2021, 06:06 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

My view on hell? Hell bad. Heaven good!
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"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.

"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.

"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."

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  #55  
Old 12-28-2021, 06:21 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

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My view on hell? Hell bad. Heaven good!
I totally agree.
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  #56  
Old 12-28-2021, 06:30 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

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Originally Posted by 1 God View Post
Also, what does the drop of water on the rich man’s tongue represent?
An aperitif to go with the Apocalypse Greens.
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  #57  
Old 12-28-2021, 06:39 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

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Originally Posted by Sister Alvear View Post
maybe I should say eternal punishment or eternal life..Matthew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 20:10 ESV
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matthew 25:41 ESV
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11 ESV
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Yes, the punishment (which is "to perish") will be everlasting. The gift of God is eternal life, and the wages of sin is death. Only the saints will live forever.

How can punishment be an eternal thing, if someone perishes (seises to exist)?
The “action” of punishment itself, is what is taking place forever in Matt. 25:46….
so to perish would be to stop eternal punishment….no?

Seems kinda conflicting.
I do have quite a bit of catching up to read on this thread, and look forward to doing so….I may have got the cart before the horse by not doing so before posting this comment..
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  #58  
Old 12-28-2021, 06:40 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

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Originally Posted by shag View Post
How can punishment be an eternal thing, if someone perishes (seises to exist)?
The “action” of punishment itself, is what is taking place forever in Matt. 25:46….
so to perish would be to stop eternal punishment….no?

Seems kinda conflicting.
I do have quite a bit of catching up to read on this thread, and look forward to doing so….I may have got the cart before the horse by not doing so before posting this comment..
The result is eternal. There’s no return.
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  #59  
Old 12-28-2021, 07:01 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

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Originally Posted by diakonos View Post
The result is eternal. There’s no return.
What I’m having trouble with though is, it says the punishment itself last forever, not the result of the punishment lasting forever.

Maybe I’m just too thick headed…



This(punishment) being nonstop- as apposed to “the result” being nonstop
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punishment


And if the result is eternal, there is no return…wouldn’t he have called it everlasting perishing, or ever lasting result of punishment, instead of everlasting punishment?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to get my mind around this
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Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. - Eph. 4:29

Last edited by shag; 12-28-2021 at 08:54 PM.
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  #60  
Old 12-28-2021, 08:55 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shag View Post
What I’m having trouble with though is, it says the punishment itself last forever, not the result of the punishment lasting forever.

Maybe I’m just too thick headed…



This being nonstop-not the result being nonstop
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punishment


And if the result is eternal, there is no return…wouldn’t he have called it everlasting perishing, or ever lasting result of punishment, instead of everlasting punishment?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to get my mind around this
What is the punishment for sin?

If that punishment is eternal, then it is an eternal punishment.

The wages of sin is death. The enemies of God will suffer everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. They will experience the second death.

That death/destruction will be eternal. Therefore, it is an eternal punishment.

Eternal life is only for the saints. Not for the wicked.
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