Most complex explanation of the Godhead ever!

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Can someone demonstrate FROM THE BIBLE where the word "logos" is used unequivocally to mean somebody's plan or intention, APART FROM any reference to speech, utterance, expression of thought, dialogue, discussion, etc?

1Peter 3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear."

Acts 10:29 "Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?"

Luke 1:4 "That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed."

Acts 18:14 "And when Paul was now about to open his mouth, Gallio said unto the Jews, If it were a matter of wrong or wicked lewdness, O ye Jews, reason would that I should bear with you"

Matthew 5:32 "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

Acts 8:20-21 "But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. [21] Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God."

Acts 10:29 "Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?"

Hebrews 4:13 "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."

Hebrews 6:1 "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."

While only the bold doctrine is the word "logos"

Romans 9:28 "For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth."

2 Corinthians 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

Philippians 4:17 "Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account."

Colossians 2:22-23 "Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? [23] Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."

2 Thessalonians 2:16-17 "Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, [17] Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work."

James 1:21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls."

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

These are all I can find for now. But that is a lot, that are "APART FROM any reference to speech, utterance, dialogue, discussion, etc?" I erased expression of thought because that's a catch all. This is what is truthfully being discussed.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

You guys believe in eternal sonship?

What????

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

1Peter 3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear."

Acts 10:29 "Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?"

Luke 1:4 "That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed."

Acts 18:14 "And when Paul was now about to open his mouth, Gallio said unto the Jews, If it were a matter of wrong or wicked lewdness, O ye Jews, reason would that I should bear with you"

Matthew 5:32 "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

Acts 8:20-21 "But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. [21] Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God."

Acts 10:29 "Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?"

Hebrews 4:13 "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."

Hebrews 6:1 "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."

While only the bold doctrine is the word "logos"

Romans 9:28 "For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth."

2 Corinthians 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

Philippians 4:17 "Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account."

Colossians 2:22-23 "Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? [23] Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."

2 Thessalonians 2:16-17 "Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, [17] Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work."

James 1:21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls."

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

These are all I can find for now. But that is a lot, that are "APART FROM any reference to speech, utterance, dialogue, discussion, etc?" I erased expression of thought because that's a catch all. This is what is truthfully being discussed.

I'll get back to this a bit later, but in the meantime, can you explain how the references you cited show that logos refers strictly to an idea or thought apart from it's expression?

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Please clarify Genesis 1:27

What if its meaning as a tri partite being. Body, Soul, and Spirit. Not that God always has a body but can manifest one as the theophanies in tbe OT. Because in Isaiah 42:1 I see all 3 "Behold my servant (body, the flesh Jesus), whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul (soul-nephesh soul, self, life, creature, person, mind, living being) I have put my spirit (spirit-rûach "wind, breath, mind, spirit") upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles."

Because as I can see in Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Image means the same thing as "image, likeness." Something else Id like to point out it says "male and female created he them." I believe this shows something other then image as we know it. All though this word "tselem" means image as "pillar, or mold etc." everytime in relation to false idol worship. But when Genesis 1:27 says plainly "male and female created he them", I believe that to be the seperating of the feminine and masculine attributes of God. Instead of placing them all in one gender He distributed them separately to each gender. To make it impossible for one gender to have the full spectrum alone. Why He can be the whole spectrum in and of Himself, we as men and women can only be half of it in ourselves. We need the union that God put in place with in Genesis 2:18,21-25 to ever even get a chance at the same capacity. That is also being made in His image and likeness also.

Because Romans 1:23 is warning against this very thing "changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things." So I doubt us bring created in His image has anything to do with human appearance. I believe its pertaining to essence, and nature.

Just because God can manifest a body doesn't mean He has to. He only does it in relation to His creation, and as in the case of the man Christ Jesus as a "resolution" to His creation, not because He has to, but that He can.

Because in Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:" we know He is speaking to Angels. So do we believe image and likeness is talking about outward exterior? I think that would be crazy to say yes, in the fact that most of us have never seen a angel but believe they are around us. While image and likeness is natural for us to rationalize as outward appearance, but when its speaking of Celestial beings, I can guarantee you it doesn't mean the same thing.

Also another thing it could be speaking of looking at verse 26 is in relation it dominion. Because that's what comes directly after He says "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." He then says "let them have dominion, over all the earth." I doubt the image when pertaining to God has anything with outward exterior, in these verses. I venture to say Hes meaning all 3 of these things, is all part of us being made in His image and likeness, Being tri partite, male and female in Gender, and having dominion. Him manifesting Himself in bodily form is to relate Himself with us, not the other way around!

Just something to consider. You don't agree I won't fall out with you, because I don't know for sure either! But just a thought...

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I'll get back to this a bit later, but in the meantime, can you explain how the references you cited show that logos refers strictly to an idea or thought apart from it's expression?

I was only following this line of thinking you said "APART FROM any reference to speech, utterance, dialogue, discussion, etc?"
Because this is "its use as respect to the MIND alone, reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating etc." I only out this because its not always talking about words spoken. As what John 1:1 and 1:14 are saying and relaying. I'm just showing this idea isn't dependent of itself.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

No. Do you believe there is a Father and Son in Heaven?

no

[Amanah]

I believe God manifest in the flesh is in heaven, and that Jesus is the everlasting Father.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

What if its meaning as a tri partite being. Body, Soul, and Spirit. Not that God always has a body but can manifest one as the theophanies in tbe OT. Because in Isaiah 42:1 I see all 3 "Behold my servant (body, the flesh Jesus), whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul (soul-nephesh soul, self, life, creature, person, mind, living being) I have put my spirit (spirit-rûach "wind, breath, mind, spirit") upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles."

Because as I can see in Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Image means the same thing as "image, likeness." Something else Id like to point out it says "male and female created he them." I believe this shows something other then image as we know it. All though this word "tselem" means image as "pillar, or mold etc." everytime in relation to false idol worship. But when Genesis 1:27 says plainly "male and female created he them", I believe that to be the seperating of the feminine and masculine attributes of God. Instead of placing them all in one gender He distributed them separately to each gender. To make it impossible for one gender to have the full spectrum alone. Why He can be the whole spectrum in and of Himself, we as men and women can only be half of it in ourselves. We need the union that God put in place with in Genesis 2:18,21-25 to ever even get a chance at the same capacity. That is also being made in His image and likeness also.

Because Romans 1:23 is warning against this very thing "changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things." So I doubt us bring created in His image has anything to do with human appearance. I believe its pertaining to essence, and nature.

Just because God can manifest a body doesn't mean He has to. He only does it in relation to His creation, and as in the case of the man Christ Jesus as a "resolution" to His creation, not because He has to, but that He can.

Because in Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:" we know He is speaking to Angels. So do we believe image and likeness is talking about outward exterior? I think that would be crazy to say yes, in the fact that most of us have never seen a angel but believe they are around us. While image and likeness is natural for us to rationalize as outward appearance, but when its speaking of Celestial beings, I can guarantee you it doesn't mean the same thing.

Also another thing it could be speaking of looking at verse 26 is in relation it dominion. Because that's what comes directly after He says "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." He then says "let them have dominion, over all the earth." I doubt the image when pertaining to God has anything with outward exterior, in these verses. I venture to say Hes meaning all 3 of these things, is all part of us being made in His image and likeness, Being tri partite, male and female in Gender, and having dominion. Him manifesting Himself in bodily form is to relate Himself with us, not the other way around!

Just something to consider. You don't agree I won't fall out with you, because I don't know for sure either! But just a thought...

thank you for helping me with my studies, you have made some great points.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

You guys believe in eternal sonship?

No they don't.

I'm fairly new to Michael's ideas (but as I stated in a previous post, these ideas were present in the earliest Oneness movement), but this is how I understand what they're saying. You may already understand their views and are just asking this question rhetorically in your critique of their view.

Summary
-The Omnipresent Spirit who became the Son via the Word-Image is eternal.
-The Word-Image, the visible form or celestial body of the omnipresent Spirit, is not eternal but had a beginning. The Word-Image was the first born of all creation; that is, God expressed himself in this visible form as his first act of creation and from this visible form created the heavens and the earth.
-God appeared in this visible form at all times to the Angels and at times to human beings as the Angel of the Lord.
-The human Son of God is not eternal but had a beginning at his conception when the Word-Image became man.

Why posit that God created from a visible form? You had, I believe, asserted that the Son as the Image of God only had reference to the Man (which is how I have generally believed in the past). But Col 1.15-18 especially and also Heb 1.2-3 make it difficult to maintain this when they explicitly say that the Image was the agent of creation.

Col 1.15-18: "15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence."

Heb 1.2-3a: "2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person. . . "

As stated elsewhere, when the writer of Hebrews says the Son created, he is speaking proleptically of the Son, that is, the One who was "the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person" and who created later became the Son.)

I have heard people try to explain these verses (and John 1.1-3) as "Well, as God of course he was the creator, but the Image only refers to when he became man." But these verses distinguish God from His Image while stating that the Image was the agent of creation.

The Image of God is said to be the Word in order to harmonize these verses with John 1.1-3 where the Word is distinguished from God and is the agent of creation.

The Word and Image are two ways of speaking of one reality: the expression or self-revelation of God. The Image in particular emphasizes the visible nature of this expression.

God and his Word or Image are not two distinct divine persons. Pre-incarnation, the Word-Image is not in any kind of personal relationship with God. He is simply the visible form of the omnipresent Spirit.

Post-incarnation, the Son, the Word-Image incarnate, is described as being in personal relationship with God (talking to each other, loving each other, the Son receiving information from the Father, etc.) and that's where all the real exegetical fun begins in trying to make sense of that. :-)

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Costeon

No they don't.

I'm fairly new to Michael's ideas (but as I stated in a previous post, these ideas were present in the earliest Oneness movement), but this is how I understand what they're saying. You may already understand their views and are just asking this question rhetorically in your critique of their view.

Summary
-The Omnipresent Spirit who became the Son via the Word-Image is eternal.
-The Word-Image, the visible form or celestial body of the omnipresent Spirit, is not eternal but had a beginning. The Word-Image was the first born of all creation; that is, God expressed himself in this visible form as his first act of creation and from this visible form created the heavens and the earth.
-God appeared in this visible form at all times to the Angels and at times to human beings as the Angel of the Lord.
-The human Son of God is not eternal but had a beginning at his conception when the Word-Image became man.

Why posit that God created from a visible form? You had, I believe, asserted that the Son as the Image of God only had reference to the Man (which is how I have generally believed in the past). But Col 1.15-18 especially and also Heb 1.2-3 make it difficult to maintain this when they explicitly say that the Image was the agent of creation.

Col 1.15-18: "15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence."

Heb 1.2-3a: "2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person. . . "

As stated elsewhere, when the writer of Hebrews says the Son created, he is speaking proleptically of the Son, that is, the One who was "the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person" and who created later became the Son.)

I have heard people try to explain these verses (and John 1.1-3) as "Well, as God of course he was the creator, but the Image only refers to when he became man." But these verses distinguish God from His Image while stating that the Image was the agent of creation.

The Image of God is said to be the Word in order to harmonize these verses with John 1.1-3 where the Word is distinguished from God and is the agent of creation.

The Word and Image are two ways of speaking of one reality: the expression or self-revelation of God. The Image in particular emphasizes the visible nature of this expression.

God and his Word or Image are not two distinct divine persons. Pre-incarnation, the Word-Image is not in any kind of personal relationship with God. He is simply the visible form of the omnipresent Spirit.

Post-incarnation, the Son, the Word-Image incarnate, is described as being in personal relationship with God (talking to each other, loving each other, the Son receiving information from the Father, etc.) and that's where all the real exegetical fun begins in trying to make sense of that. :-)

What you have said in summation is IMO the closest we can get to bringing together all scripture, not just laying out certain verses and saying they are Oneness verses.