What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?

[mfblume]

This topic deserves its own thread.

Esaias wrote:

Let's clarify. That which is resurrected to live again is that which had previously died. In order for the PERSON to resurrect, the PERSON must be dead and then brought back to life. If the body is the only thing that dies, then the body - not the whole person - is the only thing that resurrects.

That is actually what I believe. The body is the only thing that dies when that which is known as death occurs. I will consider your thoughts as I read through them, as aI am writing as I read each part you have presented..

If one says "the soul was dead in sins" then the soul resurrected at conversion. Which means the person is resurrected twice? Two resurrections for the saint? Yet the Bible speaks of the saint resurrecting on a particular day, a single event in which the PERSON resurrects.

Well, the soul, not the body, was indeed in a state of death called trespasses and sins.

Ephesians 2:1.. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

That verse follows Paul's example of Christ's experience in which he both was raised from the dead and then seated in heavenly places. Jesus experienced two things noted in chapter 1.

Ephesians 1:20.. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Paul said that the power that God used to do this with Christ is toward us. In other words, we experience the same things.

Ephesians 1:19.. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

The power God used to raise and enthrone Christ is toward us. That means, as 2:1 said, we are quickened together with Him -- raised from the dead.

And, secondly, we are seated with Him as well.

Ephesians 2:6.. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

It is considered by God to be a raising and seating with Christ as much as Christ was raised and seated.

For that reason, Paul said that we need to come before God with the understanding that we are alive from the dead. Union to Christ's death and resurrection is very real, and we must consider it so.

Romans 6:9-11.. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. ..(10).. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. ..(11).. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And that is what this next verse says as well:

Romans 6:6.. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Conversion and regeneration being likened to a resurrection is just that - LIKE an actual resurrection.

But what do we mean LIKE a resurrection? Perhaps we are so used to thinking of the body resurrecting that we think the soul and spirit is not resurrected because we can only imagine a physical thing.

I believe our spirits were actually dead in sin. Dormant spirits. And they were made alive at new birth.

A person who is "dead in sins" is not literally ontologically DEAD. They are under sentence of death, "dead man walking" in other words.

I think the spirit is dead. And the only part born again is the spirit.

The sinner - who is dead in sins - must die in baptism, die to sin. Yet the person has been alive before and during and after all these deaths.

Now that I think of it, your understanding of spirit is different than mine, so my explanation of the spirit being dead and made alive may mean something to you that I never heard of.

Jude spoke of people being TWICE DEAD. I think that refers to dead spirits made alive at new birth only to become dead again.

Thus it can be seen that such "quickenings" are not the type of quickening Paul speaks about in 1 Cor 15. They are called quickening, being made alive again, etc by way of close analogy. A man can kill you at golf, but there's no need to call the funeral parlour yet, nor will he be wanted for homicide.

Resurrection involves the PERSON.

Paul was speaking focusing about bodies in 1 Cor 15, though.

And a living person is a union of spirit and flesh, producing a living soul. When spirit and flesh separate, the person dies. When spirit is REunited with flesh, the person lives again, or is "resurrected".

Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1 Corinthians:15:18

If the resurrection ONLY involves the body, then only Christ's body was raised. If then "there is no resurrection", that simply means there is no resurrection of the body. The saints would just be in heaven with their soul-bodies or whatever is imagined the dead have.

Right. And that is not victory over death.

But Paul says if Christ isn't raised, and there is no resurrection, then those Christians who have died are DONE, gone, perished. They are not floating in heaven, etc. The continuation beyond this mortal life is all dependent upon RESURRECTION. Without resurrection, YOU WON'T BE GOING ANYWHERE. So clearly resurrection is not limited to the body itself. Otherwise Paul had no argument.

If I am right and the soul and spirit do not die upon death of the body, but leave the body to be with the Lord, it would only be for the sake of resurrection of the body. If there is no point to resurrect our bodies, then there is no point of continuing on in heaven. We were not created to live and die to go to heaven. Adam was created to rule this world immortally. That purpose has never changed. God restores us to the PLAN A of what we read in Genesis 1 for man. Rule the world immortally. And this makes the picture of the resurrection make perfectly good sense. If there is no resurrection, then Plan A will never come to pass, so let man perish. But because Plan A is not abandoned, then resurrection is necessary because we only leave bodies in spirit and soul to go to heaven in order to await the resurrection and recommence with Plan A. There would be no purpose to die and go to heaven apart from bodies if we were never going to get those bodes again later.

The aspect of ruling this world forever is therefore not considered by those who feel there is no physical resurrection and those like yourselves who feel spirit and soul dies at death along with the body.

Hmmm.... Something to consider!

[mfblume]

I rephrased it in such a way as to be more clear.

Those who believe both the spirit and soul die along with the body at physical death propose that resurrection is not only victory over death in reference to the body but also the soul and spirit.

Both of the views that propose there is no physical resurrection and this other that teaches spirit, soul and body die at death (to see all three are resurrected) lack one common denominator. They do not consider that God planned for Adam to immortally live and rule this world before he sinned. Death only came to mankind after Adam’s sin. In order to restore mankind to what God originally planned for us, this physical immortality in which
we were meant to live and rule this world must be reinstated.

Those who propose that the spirit and soul die with the body, necessitating all three components of our beings to resurrect, also claim that Jesus died in spirit, soul and body as well.

They claim Paul had no argument in 1 Corinthians 15 if only the body resurrects. They come to this conclusion by reasoning that lack of a bodily resurrection would allow for the spirit and soul to continue in heaven. This would see people still existing without a resurrection of the body. However, Paul said lack of a resurrection means people perish!
Therefore, the resurrection must include dead, spirits, souls and bodies being given life again, or his argument in verse 18 is moot.

1 Corinthians 15:16-18 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: (17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. (18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Falling asleep in their view means spirit, soul and body are dead.

But the truth is that God would not care to see the soul and body continue in heaven forever if the resurrection of the body alone would not occur. Why keep man in existence forever in soul and spirit if God’s purpose for man was to physically live in immortal bodies and rule the earth? In that sense, God would simply let man perish if there was not resurrection, if indeed the resurrection is of body only. And this makes perfect sense.
However, because God did not abandon Plan A with the creation of man for the purpose of having him rule the world forever in an immortal body, then God does indeed plan to resurrect our bodies. If we should die before the resurrection, and our spirit and souls depart from our bodies due to the death of those bodies, our spirits and souls remain in Heaven waiting. God’s purpose will recommence once the resurrection occurs and we reunite with our bodies. We will then rule the world in physical immortal bodies as Adam was created to do.

This makes the sense of the picture of perishing due to no resurrection of the body to be understood as saying that God would have no purpose for man to remain in Heaven in spirit and soul forever. The entire creation of man was to see an image of God in this world ruling the earth as God is in Heaven ruling over everything. We would rule with God indwelling us and together united to see His Spirit work through our physical bodies to influence this physical universe that He created.


-- Am I right in how I represented your view?

[Carl]

Man is a "living soul". So when death occurs he is a dead soul. The soul is not an immortal component of man. Scripture does say the spirit returns to God. Whatever that is. Is it just the breath or life giving force or is there more to it than that? I don't know.

The thing that has always perplexed me is the physical attributes that people mention the dead as having when their disembodied soul or spirit departs. For example. "So and so is dancing around the throne or looking down on us or is walking on streets of gold". Or when people go to gravesites and talk to departed loved ones.

Bro Blume, I like your explanation of man living and ruling on earth as he was always intended to do. It sounds much more plausible than floating around on a cloud forever or a mansion made of jewels. I would much prefer to live with grass, trees, flowers, rivers etc....

But I don't think there is an intermediate existence because.... the soul is not a separate immortal entity.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Carl

Man is a "living soul". So when death occurs he is a dead soul. The soul is not an immortal component of man. Scripture does say the spirit returns to God. Whatever that is. Is it just the breath or life giving force or is there more to it than that? I don't know.

The thing that has always perplexed me is the physical attributes that people mention the dead as having when their disembodied soul or spirit departs. For example. "So and so is dancing around the throne or looking down on us or is walking on streets of gold". Or when people go to gravesites and talk to departed loved ones.

Bro Blume, I like your explanation of man living and ruling on earth as he was always intended to do. It sounds much more plausible than floating around on a cloud forever or a mansion made of jewels. I would much prefer to live with grass, trees, flowers, rivers etc....

But I don't think there is an intermediate existence because.... the soul is not a separate immortal entity.

Your explanations with Esaias are very interesting and thoughtful.

However, I still see the soul as inside the body as the body is a house, and we depart from it, according to Paul at death. Esaias once said that it was Paul's desire to do so, not necessarily what does happen. I disagree. And like you, I agree the Bible says nothing about walking or doing anything in heaven. I still see an interim time, though.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Your explanations with Esaias are very interesting and thoughtful.

However, I still see the soul as inside the body as the body is a house, and we depart from it, according to Paul at death. Esaias once said that it was Paul's desire to do so, not necessarily what does happen. I disagree. And like you, I agree the Bible says nothing about walking or doing anything in heaven. I still see an interim time, though.

I think that the word "soul" that we assign the meaning of spirit is an example of the meaning of a word morphing over time. In the OT the word appears to mean person. Often you can substitute person for soul in the Bible and you will find that the context does not change.

Genesis 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

If you substitute person for soul, the word and the context hardly change.

Genesis 46:18

These are the sons of Zilpah, whom Laban gave to Leah his daughter, and these she bare unto Jacob, even sixteen souls.

I believe soul in the Bible means life. Maybe not exclusively, but generally.

Joshua 11:11

And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.

Breath of life, there was not any left to breathe . . .

Keeping body and soul together, seems to mean that you are still alive and breathing, at least scripturally. What do you think?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I rephrased it in such a way as to be more clear.

Those who believe both the spirit and soul die along with the body at physical death propose that resurrection is not only victory over death in reference to the body but also the soul and spirit.

Both of the views that propose there is no physical resurrection and this other that teaches spirit, soul and body die at death...

I don't recall ever in my entire life saying that. I have never heard anyone say the spirit dies at death. Here is what I have always believed and taught: at death the flesh goes back to the dust and the spirit goes back to God who gave it (Eccl 12:7).

(to see all three are resurrected) lack one common denominator. They do not consider. that God planned for Adam to immortally live and rule this world before he sinned. Death only came to mankind after Adam’s sin. In order to restore mankind to what God originally planned for us, this physical immortality in which
we were meant to live and rule this world must be reinstated.

Now this is weird. I honestly have no idea why you say that. I have always understood the original intent for Man was to live and rule the earth as the sons of God. It is one of the reasons I never bought into 'Fly Awayism' or the immortal soul theory. I can only say I have no idea where you got such an idea, honestly. Every person I've ever known who believes the truth of the resurrection understands this most basic fundamental point.

They claim Paul had no argument in 1 Corinthians 15 if only the body resurrects. They come to this conclusion by reasoning that lack of a bodily resurrection would allow for the spirit and soul to continue in heaven. This would see people still existing without a resurrection of the body. However, Paul said lack of a resurrection means people perish!
Therefore, the resurrection must include dead, spirits, souls and bodies being given life again, or his argument in verse 18 is moot.

You do realise my point was that IF 1 Cor 15 was ONLY about the body coming back to life (albeit immortal) THEN those who have died have PERISHED IF the dead are not raised. This means that IF what Paul wrote was true (it is) THEN the immortal soul theory is at once proven utterly false and impossible. Why? Because those who "live on after death" ARE STILL ALIVE whether the bodies come out of the grave or not, they have not and indeed CANNOT "perish".

BUT, since if the dead do not rise then all departed are perished, it follows that 1 Cor 15 IS NOT about a bodily resurrection for living disembodied dead-but-still-alive people. Rather, it is about the resurrection of the PERSON. The PERSON has forever perished if there is no resurrection. Why? Because a living person is a uniting of flesh and spirit (making a living soul, a living creature, a living PERSON). As long as spirit and flesh are separated, the person is DEAD. The Bible calls it "sleep" because it is a temporary condition until resurrection. Just as a man goes to sleep, and wakes up in the morning, humans die, but will rise up on That Morning.


Paul said "comfort one another with these words", words that say NOTHING about the joys of the after death fiesta in heaven. But words about RESURRECTION. Immortal soulists however routinely comfort one another with tales of how sweet it is for the dead to be in heaven, what they are doing, etc. This tells me clearly the immortal soul theory is NOT what Jesus, His apostles, and the prophets believed.

[mfblume]

Will get back with responses and some thoughts I have on soul and spirit.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I don't recall ever in my entire life saying that. I have never heard anyone say the spirit dies at death. Here is what I have always believed and taught: at death the flesh goes back to the dust and the spirit goes back to God who gave it (Eccl 12:7).

That's why I asked for your clarification. So, you believe the spirit leaves the body and goes to God.

Now this is weird. I honestly have no idea why you say that. I have always understood the original intent for Man was to live and rule the earth as the sons of God. It is one of the reasons I never bought into 'Fly Awayism' or the immortal soul theory. I can only say I have no idea where you got such an idea, honestly. Every person I've ever known who believes the truth of the resurrection understands this most basic fundamental point.

I've just never heard anyone say anything about why we see our bodies restored to immortal physical life, and have never heard you address this. You said the PERSON died and is resurrected, not the body That made me think you meant spirit soul and body dies and is resurrected, because a person is a spirit, soul and body.

So, are you saying that after the resurrection, we do not stay in heaven but come to earth and continue as Ada was meant to continue on the earth, as I do? You said something about the PERSON dies, not just the body. So, do you mean the SOUL dies at death to not exist, let alone depart the body and go to heaven?

you said...

If the body is the only thing that dies, then the body - not the whole person - is the only thing that resurrects.

And I consider a person to be spirit, soul and body.

When you said this...

Resurrection involves the PERSON. And a living person is a union of spirit and flesh, producing a living soul. When spirit and flesh separate, the person dies. When spirit is REunited with flesh, the person lives again, or is "resurrected".

...it made me think you meant the separation is some form of dying and you did not say the spirit goes back to God when you wrote that. I did not know what you thought happened to the spirit, so it seemed you meant the person, spirit, soul and body died. requiring spirit, soul and body to rise again. You just did not say enough. Now that you have said the spirit leaves and goes to God, I understand that you did not mean the spirit dies and needs resurrection. That was a missing factor in your explanation.

You do realise my point was that IF 1 Cor 15 was ONLY about the body coming back to life (albeit immortal) THEN those who have died have PERISHED IF the dead are not raised.

It's not easy to follow your thought here.

This means that IF what Paul wrote was true (it is) THEN the immortal soul theory is at once proven utterly false and impossible. Why? Because those who "live on after death" ARE STILL ALIVE whether the bodies come out of the grave or not, they have not and indeed CANNOT "perish".

That clarifies your thought better than what I read before.

BUT, since if the dead do not rise then all departed are perished, it follows that 1 Cor 15 IS NOT about a bodily resurrection for living disembodied dead-but-still-alive people. Rather, it is about the resurrection of the PERSON. The PERSON has forever perished if there is no resurrection. Why? Because a living person is a uniting of flesh and spirit (making a living soul, a living creature, a living PERSON). As long as spirit and flesh are separated, the person is DEAD. The Bible calls it "sleep" because it is a temporary condition until resurrection. Just as a man goes to sleep, and wakes up in the morning, humans die, but will rise up on That Morning.

I agree that is why it is called sleep. But I restrict that to the body.

So, I am trying to work through what you are saying.

You are saying that there is no person if the spirit separates from the body. So, the soul does not die, but just ceases to exist? Please elaborate on what happens to the soul when the spirit leaves the body, because I am not clear about your view on that.

This leads us to ask that if the soul ceases to exist, that is, the experience of dying is the soul ceasing to exist, then how are the personality and individual traits maintained when the resurrection occurs and the spirit reunites to flesh to make soul all over again, if that is what happens with soul in your view?

Paul said "comfort one another with these words", words that say NOTHING about the joys of the after death fiesta in heaven. But words about RESURRECTION. Immortal soulists however routinely comfort one another with tales of how sweet it is for the dead to be in heaven, what they are doing, etc. This tells me clearly the immortal soul theory is NOT what Jesus, His apostles, and the prophets believed.

I still see the soul in heaven, again because of what Paul said about departing from the body and being present with the Lord. But please elaborate more on your thoughts of the soul at death.

How can the soul SLEEP, if the spirit leaves the body to see the soul non-existent, if you are saying it is non-existent? I need more clarity from you on that.

[mfblume]

In the meantime, here s=is what I see about spirit and soul.

Soul and spirit are certainly not the same thing. Spirit and soul can be divided according to 1 Thess 5:23. God’s breath became man’s spirit and contacted the body to have a soul created.

Romans 8:16 sees God’s Spirit bear witness with our spirits. Spirits of men are not just breath or life. We actually sense things in our human spirits. That does not mean each person has part of God’s Spirit in them, as though they naturally house his Spirit.

Spirit, soul and body are seen in man’s creation, where the breath of God became man’s spirit, the dust of ground became body and the breath from God touching the body caused a soul to come into existence. It’s as though the body without the spirit is dead. So, the spirit from God’s breath made the body alive to make the real us, souls.

Spirit and body caused an individual soul with self awareness to come into being. And spirit and body are made one with the soul the part that unified them together. Angels were made spirits, but men were made souls.

Our bodies allow us, as souls, to relate to the physical universe. Our spirits allow our souls to relate the spiritual realm. The Bible definitely shows a function to the spirit that allows us as souls to be involved in spiritual things. The soul is able to choose whether to focus on the material realm by the body or the spiritual by the spirit. And the spirit , above all, get us in touch with God.

This makes man like a temple. Holiest of holies corresponds to the spirit, soul is the active centre and is the holy place. And the body is like the outer court. Even flesh was on the altar and washed in the actual temple outer court. The priests spent much active ministry in the holy place corresponding to the soul. But the holiest of holies is where the high priest went and God’s Spirit manifested. Only the high priest went into the holiest as Jesus entered our spirits. When we were born again, it was the human spirit that was born of God’s Spirit, not soul nor body.

In our spirits, there is no natural light, but the light of Go, showing us that our flesh is useless in things of faith that our spirits engage in.

The bible often speaks of our spirits, and the spirits of prophets.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.


Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Our spirits can be hardened, be contrite, be right.

Deuteronomy 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

Psalms 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Psalms 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.


We can be troubled in our spirits.

John 13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

Paul had his spirit stirred.

Acts 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.

Paul spoke of being with people in his spirit.

1 Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,


Restless spirit.

2 Corinthians 2:13 I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.


Our spirits are here shown to sense things as being right or wrong. Conscience.


The spirit can be willing.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.


Jesus perceived things in his spirit.

Mark 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?


These are spiritual functions that fleshly people do not experience.


Sighing in spirit.

Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.


You can groan in spirit.

John 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,



Pressed in spirit, or nudged.

Acts 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.


The spirit is actually functioning in these sorts of capacities which makes it far more than breath.

Bound in spirit.

Acts 20:22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

.
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.


Our spirits can know certain things.

We really see how the spirit interacts with God in ways the soul is not said to do so.

Luke 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.


Worship in spirit is true worship.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


We serve in spirit.

Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;


We become one spirit with God as man and woman become one flesh.

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.


1 Corinthians 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?


Spirit is contrasted from natural awareness and knowing.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


This shows things of God in the spiritual realm are not know by the soul, but the spirit allows the soul to understand them making the spirit the avenue for the soul to involve itself in spiritual things, just as the body allows the soul to interact with the physical realm.

The soul is described as being involved in other things altogether.

Will in these verses is Hebrew SOUL.

Psalms 27:12 Deliver me not over unto the will of mine enemies: for false witnesses are risen up against me, and such as breathe out cruelty.


Psalms 41:2 The LORD will preserve him, and keep him alive; and he shall be blessed upon the earth: and thou wilt not deliver him unto the will of his enemies.


Emotions:

1 Samuel 18:1 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.


Psalms 84:2 My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the LORD: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God.

Soul being vexed.

2 Kings 4:27 And when she came to the man of God to the hill, she caught him by the feet: but Gehazi came near to thrust her away. And the man of God said, Let her alone; for her soul is vexed within her: and the LORD hath hid it from me, and hath not told me.

Knows emotional sweetness.


Proverbs 16:24 Pleasant words are as an honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.

[mfblume]

Esaias, I'll let your thoughts on death and the spirit and body sink in to respond to you later.