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  #121  
Old 10-27-2007, 08:41 PM
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Monkeyman Monkeyman is offline
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The problem with a post-denominational age, and a mega-ministry,
televangelism model is that national and international gatherings of
like-minded people, who share a common history, faith and practice, are
set-aside for commercialization of Christianity, which leads to
personality-driven, popularity focused events, where there are no
unifying ideas, just market-driven forces.

It is this context that has created a crisis of meaning for PAW, which
causes you to say open the convention pulpit up, and for others to say
keep it entirely closed.



This post-denominational age, which has given birth to "full gospel"
Baptists, and "neo-Pentecostal" African Methodist Episcopalians, and
even "charismatic" Anglicans and Catholics, is a good thing, if we focus
on the broad dimensions of the Pentecostal experience, and how it always
undermines our social and political constructions of the church -- as
was the case in the book of Acts in the Bible. This is also the case in
Chicago, if you believe religious historian and Princeton professor
Wallace Best, who in his book Passionately Human, No Less Divine;
Religion and Culture in Black Chicago from 1915 to 1952, argues for the
"pentecostalization" of churches in the Windy City through the growth of
gospel music, and the migration of rural black Christianity into an
urban context.



However, the movement of the Spirit is not market-driven spirituality,
which is highly ahistorical, anti-critical, non-reflective and
disparaging of tradition. Rather than renewing a movement, these market
forces can cause schism, just as the "new issue" of Jesus name baptism
did in 1914, eight years after Azusa Street.



Apostolic Pentecostals were birthed in an attempt to radically reform
and renew the church, not to reject it.



While I know the struggle has been long and hard to be different in PAW,
you perhaps have not been different enough, in that you would now go the
way of being independent, rather than still be a force of change to be
reckoned with, a father and mentor of a new generation of ministry, and
someone programmatically instituting progressive Apostolic
Pentecostalism theologically, politically and socially in the context of
your lifelong denomination.



If Episcopalians have not split over blessing same-sex unions, and
ordaining gay bishops (though some have left), why should you leave and
PAW possibly split along the lines of those who want to rightly
celebrate Apostolic Pentecostal and PAW identity and those who rightly
want to be ecumenical, interdenominational and intentionally inclusive?



Leaving really means you can no longer mentor a new generation of
leadership in the denomination. Like so many African American leaders,
you become a lone ranger, a religious Don Quijote, with a mission
limited to one. People gather around you because of who you are, rather
than the program, the mission, the purpose you could possibly represent.



I actually think everyone in PAW could probably use more sophisticated
and critical theological education, even of an Evangelical or
Pentecostal variety. Pentecostals don't just make good music or preach
on television today. They have also created accredited schools, created
academic societies and written theological books and journals of the
highest scholarly order, and I'm not just talking about the latest
material from United Pentecostal Church scholar David Bernard. We can
do better than that.



I think you and PAW would do well to consider the points Bishop Morris
Golder said the denomination needed to reflect on, when in 1973 he
published the history of the organization. He then said the organization
needed to study broader Christian theology and history. But Golder was
trained in religion with a graduate degree from a major university. He
was not just socially and politically conscious. He was also
theologically cosmopolitan.



Being theologically cosmopolitan is not inviting Baptist or COGIC
preachers to the PAW convention. It is what Bishop Smallwood Williams
had in mind when in his 1981 autobiography, This is My Story; a
Significant Life Struggle, he wrote, "I made a lot of Pentecostals
uncomfortable. I never purposely set out to be unpleasant, but my
emphasis on pragmatic preaching was leading me to get involved in areas
where few in my church had ventured. Under my leadership in the late
fifties and sixties … members of Bibleway were getting involved in
places that didn't make us particularly popular with some Pentecostals
-- Christian unity and cooperation … I had the ability … to see
beyond denominational differences and religious prejudices to apply
Pentecostal theology to practical areas of living. That gift of mine
wasn't particularly appreciated. No doubt many Pentecostals, like many
Christians in many other denominations, were threatened when they took a
step outside their own door. This is true to this day, despite all the
talk of the ecumenical movement."



Being theologically cosmopolitan is the work you have done with The
Woodlawn Organization and the partnership PAW has forged with World
Vision to meet human needs in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in New
Orleans. Being theologically cosmopolitan is finding progressive and
prophetic reasons for partnership and fellowship with those with whom
you might doctrinally disagree in the hopes of building bridges and
better representing the kingdom of God.



PAW, despite the theological exclusivism and sectarianism of some, has
many bridge-building elements of its history, upon which you and others
should be building. The legacy of radical reformation in Christian
doctrine and practice is worth emulating, and not merely celebrating as
completed practice of restoration. The heritage of affirming and
ordaining women in ministry and to the pastorate should be celebrated
and expanded. The history of interracial fellowship in a hostile, racist
society, should be retained and renewed for a multicultural America,
where others like Hispanics are the new face of ethnic America.



The way in which African American Apostolic Pentecostal leaders were
well-read (though not formally trained), politically engaged, interested
in Africa, and conversant in the issues of the day is nothing more than
a firm foundation upon which everyone in PAW could build.



Perhaps you have tried to affirm and expand all of these things in PAW
down through the years, and you simply got tired, frustrated and fed up.
Nevertheless, I am disappointed.



What PAW needs is not a market-driven, personality-focused national
meeting with celebrity preachers (both in and outside of PAW) to draw
people, it needs new and renewed vision and focus on its own identity
and purpose, an identity and purpose around which a new generation of
Apostolic Pentecostals can gather and celebrate. Both sides of this
petty, useless conflict need to be challenged about how to build unity
without uniformity.



It is still Jesus' prayer that we be one. And we are stilled called to
build up people for works of service (and that should be our focus),
because in such building, we shall come into the unity of the faith.
(Eph. 4:13)



Sincerely,



Rev. Marlon Millner



Rev. Marlon Millner is a third-generation Apostolic Pentecostal, who is
ordained or licensed in both Pentecostal and Baptist traditions. He is a
co-founder of the Pentecostal Charismatic Peace Fellowship
(www.pcpf.org) and lives outside of Philadelphia, PA. He attended his
first PAW convention when he was 16 years old.
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  #122  
Old 11-11-2007, 09:05 AM
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Adino Adino is offline
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Rev. Millner,

Thank you for sharing your letter. I find the whole matter of great interest. Maybe you can help me better understand the current atmosphere within the PAW concerning soteriological issues.

I read from Bishop Brazier's church website the following statement:
"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."
I found the Chicago Defender article "Bishop Brazier Leaves PAW" and read that eternal security was one of the items of contention between Brazier and others in the PAW. Without knowing much about Rev. Brazier, one can see tendencies toward the position of justification by faith alone in his words.

Having only been introduced to Rev. Brazier through this forum, but having the experience of periodic contact with members of the PAW here in Michigan, I am left to wonder, if Rev. Brazier was to remain in the PAW, whether he could be a force to help the organization abandon the water/spirit doctrine of the new birth.

It is of great interest to me to learn whether or not the PAW is leaning toward a return to the position of justification by faith alone after having abandoned this view for the water/spirit doctrine under the guidance of G.T. Haywood.

Is it of your opinion that a good many within the PAW agree with Bishop Brazier's new birth position or is the water/spirit position still so dominant within the organization that he has already determined continued unity a futile effort. I realize an attempt could be made for the two very different soteriological positions to exist side by side but the merger of the PAJC and the PCI back in 1945 has already proven this move to be a disaster.

Thanks in advance for your time and thoughts.

Shelby Smith
southeastern, Michigan
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  #123  
Old 11-12-2007, 06:57 PM
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Adino Adino is offline
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Monkeyman?
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  #124  
Old 11-13-2007, 02:09 PM
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TRFrance TRFrance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad View Post
so i take it you don't care much for Jones and braizer??


I wonder what chuckie Ellis will do ?? he has the other Large PAW church in Detroit.

HIs uncle had a great church in chicago but is serving time in prison
Charles Ellis... God bless him, but... I have some questions about his doctrine.
I remember seeing him on video once , preaching, and saying that a person can have the gift of tongues but not have the Holy Ghost.

Alarm bells went off in my head when I heard that!!
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Daniel 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever.

I'm T France, and I approved this message.
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  #125  
Old 11-13-2007, 02:40 PM
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TRFrance TRFrance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adino View Post
I read from Bishop Brazier's church website the following statement:
"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."
Interesting. Today I went to his church website, and but maybe he's updated it since then. This is what I found:

WHAT WE BELEIVE

We believe that we should earnestly contend for God's standard of salvation. In the Word of God we find nothing short of a holy, Spirit-filled life with the signs following as on the day of Pentecost.

(Acts 2:4; 8:14-17; 10:44-48; 10:1-6, Romans 12:1-2, Hebrews 12:14).

The only ground upon which God will accept a sinner is repentance from the heart for the sins that he has committed. (Psalm 51:17, Luke 24:47)

We believe in water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and the receiving of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38; 10:44-48; 19:1-6)
We believe in the Translation of Saints.
We believe in the Millennium.
We believe in the Lord's Supper.
We believe in Divine Healing.
We believe in a wholly sanctified life and final judgment.

To answer any questions you may have, we welcome you to our Bible classes. If this is not possible, you may call the church directly at 773.667.1500.


Its not as explicitly Apostolic the same way you'd expect to see it on a UPC website (necessity of Acts 2:38 for salvation, speaking in tongues, etc.), but it seems fairly Apostolic I guess, on the main points.
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Daniel 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever.

I'm T France, and I approved this message.
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  #126  
Old 11-13-2007, 10:30 PM
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Adino Adino is offline
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TRFrance,

Hello, good to meet you.

I just wrote Rev. Brazier's church an email this morning asking for clarification on a couple of issues. I pointed to that quote from a section they had on salvation. (Posted here again for convenience)
"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."
I asked them to clarify this statement with following statements on baptism in the same article which strongly suggested it [baptism] was necessary for salvation. I am hoping for a response.

I also wrote Rev. C. Ellis of Greater Grace Temple in Detroit (I live just north of Detroit) asking him if there was a trend for those in the PAW to return to the position of justification by faith alone abandoned by G.T. Haywood in the early years. He very clearly stated "I haven't heard anything about the PAW abandoning its position on Salvation."

All very interesting.

Are you aware of a trend within the PAW to return to the justification by faith alone position?

You mentioned concerns over Ellis. How has he veered from the mainstream?
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  #127  
Old 11-13-2007, 10:37 PM
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Thad Thad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRFrance View Post
Charles Ellis... God bless him, but... I have some questions about his doctrine.
I remember seeing him on video once , preaching, and saying that a person can have the gift of tongues but not have the Holy Ghost.

Alarm bells went off in my head when I heard that!!

Wow he said that ????


That's quite a change from what the Father preached
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  #128  
Old 11-13-2007, 10:38 PM
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Thad Thad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adino View Post
Monkeyman?

Monkeyman is only on the forum Maybe once a week at most

If he posted today you might be waiting till thanksgiving LOL !
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  #129  
Old 11-13-2007, 10:40 PM
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Thad Thad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adino View Post
TRFrance,

Hello, good to meet you.

I just wrote Rev. Brazier's church an email this morning asking for clarification on a couple of issues. I pointed to that quote from a section they had on salvation. (Posted here again for convenience)
"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."
I asked them to clarify this statement with following statements on baptism in the same article which strongly suggested it [baptism] was necessary for salvation. I am hoping for a response.

I also wrote Rev. C. Ellis of Greater Grace Temple in Detroit (I live just north of Detroit) asking him if there was a trend for those in the PAW to return to the position of justification by faith alone abandoned by G.T. Haywood in the early years. He very clearly stated "I haven't heard anything about the PAW abandoning its position on Salvation."

All very interesting.

Are you aware of a trend within the PAW to return to the justification by faith alone position?

You mentioned concerns over Ellis. How has he veered from the mainstream?

there are quite a few in the PAW who are PCI - i'm sure they don't call it but you know what i mean. I believe that Braizer and Jones are. in fact, i think they also believe in Eternal security. Braizer has taught that for years.
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  #130  
Old 11-14-2007, 06:07 PM
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Adino Adino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad View Post
there are quite a few in the PAW who are PCI - i'm sure they don't call it but you know what i mean. I believe that Braizer and Jones are. in fact, i think they also believe in Eternal security. Braizer has taught that for years.
Brazier gets into his position on eternal security on one of his available downloads on his church site. Pretty sure it was the message dealing with the perseverance of the saints.

He mentions his departure from the PAW and says that the subject of eternal security came up, I think, in an interview and was mentioned in the Chicago Defender but that this was not the reason he left the PAW. He does not say what that reason was.

I want to know how his site can say, "If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again" and then go on to say:
"The sacred Scriptures attest to the essential need of water baptism, and we must believe the Scriptures because it is through them that the way of salvation is made known."
This statement seems to connect being baptized with being saved.

What's this about Ellis "saying that a person can have the gift of tongues but not have the Holy Ghost"???

I'm tempted to write him about this one....
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