A Handmaids Tale

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The wages of sin is no longer death?

According to Romans 1:32 the death penalty for capital crimes is still valid. Otherwise, ALL capital punishment (like for murder) is invalid and wrong.

Was God ever wrong when he said rapists, fornicators, murderers, etc should be sentenced to death by the courts?

Also, if a slave ran away, it was against God's law to forcibly return the escaped slave to his or her owner (Deut 23:15). Slaves could only serve until the end of the sixth year, in the Sabbath year they were set free (Deut 15:12), unless they voluntarily chose to remain for life (Deut 15:16-17).

There were also laws for concubinage, however since Bible law encompasses BOTH Testaments, monogamy has always been the norm in "Christian" societies.

The Inquisition was anything and everything BUT theonomic.

you don't think there is any difference between the OT and NT in the way God governs his people? the bible says the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, and now the law is written on fleshly tablets of the heart. We are to walk after the Spirit and not fulfill the lust of the flesh, how do you legislate that?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

there are 1000 varieties of Christians, who determines which ones would institute and legislate a govt?

Government is not instituted and legislated by any church, or "the" church. Government is ordained by God and owes Him allegiance.

The church is given, in Scripture, the task of establishing doctrine. And the state is given, in Scripture, with the task of punishing evil. So the church won't be going around executing sodomites or delinquent kids.

The church's job is to evangelise all people (including politicians). All people (including politicians) are to live and carry out their functions in accordance with God's Word.

So we better get cracking, because satan is most assuredly busy evangelising everyone he can.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Well, let's talk about it.

First, let me make clear what theonomy is. The word means "God's Law". By God's Law is meant the whole Bible, the entire Word of God. The fundamental premise or basic idea behind theonomy is that God, being our Creator, has the Right to dictate how mankind should live. God's authority extends not only to certain individuals, but ALL individuals, all families, all tribes, all nations.

Since all individuals owe God allegiance, it follows then that all nations, all societies, all organizations of men, likewise owe God allegiance. All government, whether individual, family, or national, owe God their obedience.

Theonomy assumes as a fact that God knows best how we are to live. It follows that God knows best how to organize a society. God took Israel, formed them into a nation, and gave them Law for the governing of their society. Israel was supposed to be the example to all other nations, especially in how a society is supposed to function (Deut 4:5-8). So that the nations would learn how to live the "right way" (cf Isaiah 2:3).

Furthermore, theonomy asserts the mission of the church is to teach all nations to obey Christ (Matt 28:18-20) and that includes declaring to civil authorities the word of God on all subjects (Eph 3:10).

So, what all the Word says on the subject of, say family life, is God's revealed will for family life. And is BEST for families. Likewise, what all the Word says on the subject of government, is God's revealed will for government. And is BEST for government.

So, any questions you have are welcomed.

Who could argue against what you have said, of course God knows best. and God's word is perfect. It's mans interpretation of God's word that I don't trust. It's the thought of implementing a Christian rule by corrupt men, twisted into something God never intended, as long as we have free will, I think we need a govt with separation of powers as our founders originally intended.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

you don't think there is any difference between the OT and NT in the way God governs his people? the bible says the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, and now the law is written on fleshly tablets of the heart. We are to walk after the Spirit and not fulfill the lust of the flesh, how do you legislate that?

Jesus said "Man shall live by every word of God". Jesus affirmed the continuity of the law (Matt 5:17-19). Certain things in the law have been changed, such as the priesthood and therefore the prescribed manner of worship (Heb 7:12). As Christians we are not under the law (not subject to its condemnation because we have been justified, nor seeking to be justified by the law), and yet we are not without law to God, but under the law to Christ (1 Cor 9:21). The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

The laws (plural) of God are written in the heart of the regenerate (Jer 31:33, Hebrews 8:10) which results in their obedience to the law of God (Ezekiel 36:27, Romans 2:14-15). So the new covenant most emphatically does NOT mean the law of God has been done away with or is no longer obligatory upon men.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

"(I) just don't think capital punishment for everything is a great idea. "

God's Law does not prescribe capital punishment for "everything". The following crimes, however, ARE capital crimes:

Murder
Rape
Adultery
Fornication (whether straight, gay, bestial, etc)
Kidnapping
Blasphemy
Idolatry
Inciting to idolatry
Physically assaulting one's parents
Habitual and incorrigible delinquincy
Cursing one's parents
Willful criminal anarchy (including willful Sabbath-breaking)
Not restraining your animal, if known to be dangerous, and you were warned, and it kills someone.
Witchcraft.
Witness perjury in a capital trial.

There may be one or two more, not sure.

God's Law also requires a minimum of two witnesses to the alleged crime. Further, if a witness is found commit perjury (lies) in a capital case, that witness will face the death penalty. In some cases, like a parental complaint of incorrigible delinquincy, the complainant who brings suit is required to take part in the execution of the sentence (which undoubtedly would cut down on the likelihood of bringing the complaint to begin with).

The Law requires witnesses, judges, and procedures. Thus, "vigilante justice" is not allowed except in certain cases such as government abandoning justice and encouraging crime, or in the case of manslaughter. Although in that latter case, provision is made for the manslaughterer to escape the revenge of his victim's kinfolk by going to a place of refuge for a specified time.

So, it's not "the death penalty for everything" under Biblical Law.

Under man's law, however, the death penalty could, and often has been, demanded for the most ridiculous things. If you smart off to a police officer, for example, you can find yourself dead before you know it, and you will be blamed for "non compliance". Stop paying property taxes? Men with guns will show up and flat out kill you if you don't comply.

Meanwhile, under man's law, murderers, rapists, kidnappers, etc are released into the wild after spending several years in a prison. They are usually worse when they get out than when they went in. And their life of crime often continues unabated.

God knows best, however.

I see witchcraft, was Salem attempting to institute Theonomy? weren't accusations made about the most ridiculous things and people executed unjustly?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

"I had never considered the possible rise of a Christian society, that parallels Muslim Sharia law..."

Every society has law. And all law is fundamentally religious and philosophical. The question is not "Will society be governed by religious and/or philosophical views" but rather "Which religious and philosophical views will govern society?"

Shariah is one philosophy of government. Humanism is another. And the Bible presents another philosophy. All three prescribe what is acceptable, and what is forbidden. Again, the question is simply "Which is best?" As a Christian, the answer should be obvious...

no Christian could argue against the Bible being best. no one can argue against the wickedness of mankind and their inability to govern justly. I think this is why I picture an antichrist arising from any attempt to institute biblical rule. Even the Apostles said that there would be many antichrist that would arise. and then finally the man of sin of 2 Thess 2. what society has there been than has tried theonomy and hasn't ended up drinking cool aid?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Who could argue against what you have said, of course God knows best. and God's word is perfect. It's mans interpretation of God's word that I don't trust. It's the thought of implementing a Christian rule by corrupt men, twisted into something God never intended, as long as we have free will, I think we need a govt with separation of powers as our founders originally intended.

If corrupt twisted men rule, then it doesn't matter what system of law a society gives lip service to, the result will be... well, exactly what we have now, and then some.

So, man's wickedness is no reason to object to the Word of God as the rule of law.

Regarding free will, as long as we have free will we will have sin, sinners, and crime. And what is the law made for?

But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
(1 Timothy 1:8-11)

It is specifically made for "people with free will".

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I see witchcraft, was Salem attempting to institute Theonomy? weren't accusations made about the most ridiculous things and people executed unjustly?

Are accusations made about the most ridiculous things today, in non-Biblical societies? Are people executed unjustly in non-Biblical societies?

As for Salem itself, I think a close look as the actual trials would reveal they were not, in fact following the Bible.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

no Christian could argue against the Bible being best. no one can argue against the wickedness of mankind and their inability to govern justly. I think this is why I picture an antichrist arising from any attempt to institute biblical rule. Even the Apostles said that there would be many antichrist that would arise. and then finally the man of sin of 2 Thess 2. what society has there been than has tried theonomy and hasn't ended up drinking cool aid?

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(2 Thessalonians 2:7-12)

The mystery of iniquity is the "mystery of lawlessness". Lawlessness being antinomianism, opposition to and rebellion against the law of God. The masses receive the man of sin because they are deluded by God. And why are they deluded by God? Because they choose "unrighteousness", that is to say sin, or rebellion and transgression against the law of God.

Would the man of sin claim to be an agent of God? Certainly. He is "the son of perdition", that is, he is the antitypical Judas or false apostle.

But actions always speak louder than words. The False Apostle, Son of Perdition, Man of Sin, rises to power because he has popular support among those who reject living according to the Word of God. His rise is the outworking of the hidden "mystery" of LAWLESSNESS (antinomianism).

He is the ultimate humanist, the culmination of humanism with no restraint. The end result of a rejection of God's Word as authoritative.

[Esaias]

People are fallen. People are fallible. Errors are made. Unrighteousness prevails in many cases.

That doesn't occur "less" under a God denying, antichristian, anti Biblical, humanistic social system. In fact, it is guaranteed to occur even more. The state is supposed to punish evil. That power has always been subject to abuse by evil men, or even well-meaning but ignorant men.

But what happens when the state is wholly given over to evil? When the state is not governed by any higher authority than the "will of men"? Evil abounds and is unrestrained.

Theonomy does not promise utopia this side of the resurrection.

Consider a church. Should a church be governed by the Word of God? Are churches supposed to be little theonomies in operation? Or should we say "well, power corrupts, evil men get into positions of power, " and so forth? Should we say "therefore, churches should be run by a charter drawn up by men, instead of by the Bible"?

If men are so evil they cannot be trusted to govern a society by the Word of God, how in the world can they be trusted to govern a society by the word of men?