Saved Without A Pastor??

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I agree. Its just a matter of identifying them.

why would we need to identify them?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

I was listening to this morning, and Tithesmeister I wanted to share it with you.

Thanks brother, I am listening now. I realize that you have asked some questions that I need to answer, and I will do my best to do so, however I need you to address some things as well. Lets begin with this . . .

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Please show me where it says anywhere that a pastor has the rule over you, or me. Then explain how this passage of scripture below reconciles with your doctrine.

Bible, King James Version

Matt.20 Verses 25 to 28

[25] But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
[26] But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
[27] And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
[28] Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many

Does this passage agree with the doctrine you are advocating?

I just want an honest answer. I'm not trying to trap you, I'm only trying to teach.

Please give me an honest answer and then we can move on.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

why would we need to identify them?

So we can start tithing to them? A shekel and a half, even?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So we can start tithing to them? A shekel and a half, even?

There would be plenty of self-qualified volunteers if that were the case.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Ok in context of Hebrews 13:17 you present Ephesians 4:11-12. Now tell me who you are going to submit to if not this Pastor and use scripture to prove it...

Okay. You are determined that the application of this scripture is spiritual. I believe it is not. I'm going to present some thoughts as to why I believe what I do.

There are some key words in the passage that I believe you have a twisted definition of, or perhaps they have different definitions and you are using them in the wrong context. These words are; rule (as in they that rule over you) and souls (they watch for your souls). I have these words in bold to make it as clear as possible what I am referring to.

Bible, King James Version

Heb.13
[17] Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

This may be tricky because I'm going to say what I think you believe (and most other apostolics) and then I'm going to juxtapose what I believe is really being said.

If I understand you position correctly (please feel free to say otherwise) you believe that the pastor (singular) is in authority over the local church. Furthermore he rules the church. Rules is a pretty strong word here, but it is the one used in the verse.

You further believe that the pastor is watching for my soul and yours. Soul according to YOUR definition is our immortal spirit that will live forever.

On the understanding that you have, which I hope I have accurately portrayed above, you believe that this scripture verse teaches me to submit to my pastor. Is this what you believe?

The problem I have with this doctrine is that it is in direct conflict with the words of Jesus that I quoted before. Allow me to post them again . . .

[25] But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
[26] But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
[27] And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
[28] Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

I remind you that this is about exercising authority, or dominion, or as used in the scripture you are quoting, "rule" over them.

It is impossible to reconcile these two passages with the definition that you are giving the one in Hebrews. They are miles apart. They are not even close to being in harmony. Something HAS to be wrong.

There are two possibilities:

The Bible is contradicting itself. I believe that the Bible is consistent. I don't believe God speaks out of both sides of His mouth. I am going to rule this possibility as an impossibility.

The other possibility is that you (and most of Christianity) has misinterpreted the passage in Hebrews. This possibility is possible, and given the alternative (that the words of Jesus contradict Hebrews) I am going to say that this HAS to be the case.

I have studied this because it did appear to be a conflict. I looked to Strongs for definitions of the key words I mentioned earlier. Rule is a strong word. It means to: lead, for example to command (with official authority) figuratively to deem ie, consider: account, (be) chief, count esteem , governor, rule over, suppose, think.

Rule is, according to Strongs describing a person of high official capacity. A governor?! I don't think this is referring to any spiritual capacity.

Watching for your souls is another part of the phrase that is misinterpreted in this passage. Souls in this context refers to our life. It does not refer to our spirit that will live eternally. When God breathed into Adam and he "became a living soul", this was referring to him becoming a live person. His life was in him. Many times the soul refers to lives in the Bible.

So when you consider the passage in the proper context, Obey they that have rule over you, means secular authority. Our equivalent would be the government. They watch for your souls; this means that they are to protect your very life. How they accomplish this may be through the military or law enforcement. They will be held accountable is self explanatory.

This is how I interpret these verses.

[aegsm76]

tm - you interpret as you want them to sound.
How about looking at the verses in context.

20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedees children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Jesus was dealing with an issue among the twelve.
It has parallels with how we should treat one another, but has nothing to do with church government.
There are "assigned" leader ship roles in the church, per the scripture.
If you read the book of Acts, you will see this.
The apostle Paul was a definite leader who also TOLD PEOPLE HOW TO LIVE.
How could he do this if everyone was equal.
There was a meeting of the leaders of the Church to debate how to counsel the Gentiles which were saved. Not the entire church body, but the leaders.
Now, I do not know you, so pardon me for saying this.
But, almost without fail when someone takes the stands you are taking on this thread, it is because they have a problem with authority.
So, tell me, do you have a home church that you attend and someone who is a pastor or leader in your life?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

tm - you interpret as you want them to sound.
How about looking at the verses in context.

I don't think so. I have studied a passage of scripture that does not harmonize or reconcile with another on the surface. I then studied the Strongs concordance to see what it translated to in the Greek. The definitions do not equate with the relationship of the pastor and saint.

Originally Posted by aegsm76

20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedees children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Jesus was dealing with an issue among the twelve.
It has parallels with how we should treat one another, but has nothing to do with church government.
There are "assigned" leader ship roles in the church, per the scripture.
If you read the book of Acts, you will see this.
The apostle Paul was a definite leader who also TOLD PEOPLE HOW TO LIVE.
How could he do this if everyone was equal.
There was a meeting of the leaders of the Church to debate how to counsel the Gentiles which were saved. Not the entire church body, but the leaders.

This is correct. Where were the pastors? They are not mentioned. The scriptural model of the early church was for oversight by the elders (plural) not pastor (singular). When Paul came to Jerusalem he called for the elders (plural) of the church at Ephesus to meet him at Miletus.

Acts.20
[17] And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church

Why didn't he ever mention the pastor? Notice that the elders are plural?
The setting for this meeting was that Paul was never going to see them again. This was his last meeting with them face to face, and they knew it was to be. It was a VERY important meeting. So why wasn't the pastor mentioned if he was the head of the church of Ephesus? Because the elders were given oversight of the church.

I have a question for you (okay a compound one). Who was the pastor of the church of Jerusalem? Colosse? Rome? Phillipi? Macedonia? Corinth? Galatia? Laodicea? Philadelphia? And on and on I could go. Do you know? If you do, please share scripture saying so. Also, do you have any record of a pastor being ordained in the Bible? Please share. How about elders? (plural) Yes!!! There is a record of elders being ordained, but not pastors.

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Now, I do not know you, so pardon me for saying this.
But, almost without fail when someone takes the stands you are taking on this thread, it is because they have a problem with authority.
So, tell me, do you have a home church that you attend and someone who is a pastor or leader in your life?

You are asking if I have a problem with authority. I don't believe I do. Do you have a problem with quoting scripture that the pastor has authority over me? I'd like to see it if you do. Are you a pastor? I think that I remember that you are. Could you quote scripture about submitting? I believe in submitting. Who does the Bible say we are to submit to?

Brother, you seem to want to discount the passage of scripture about being a servant if you are wanting to be the chief.

What does this verse mean to you?

27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Does a servant have authority over his master?

Please respond.

By the way, I do have a problem with false doctrine, so if you have scripture to back up what you're saying, that would be appreciated. Okay?

And . . . the answer to the last questions about the home church and the leader/pastor? Yes and yes.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I don't think so. I have studied a passage of scripture that does not harmonize or reconcile with another on the surface. I then studied the Strongs concordance to see what it translated to in the Greek. The definitions do not equate with the relationship of the pastor and saint.




This is correct. Where were the pastors? They are not mentioned. The scriptural model of the early church was for oversight by the elders (plural) not pastor (singular). When Paul came to Jerusalem he called for the elders (plural) of the church at Ephesus to meet him at Miletus.

Acts.20
[17] And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church

Why didn't he ever mention the pastor? Notice that the elders are plural?
The setting for this meeting was that Paul was never going to see them again. This was his last meeting with them face to face, and they knew it was to be. It was a VERY important meeting. So why wasn't the pastor mentioned if he was the head of the church of Ephesus? Because the elders were given oversight of the church.

I have a question for you (okay a compound one). Who was the pastor of the church of Jerusalem? Colosse? Rome? Phillipi? Macedonia? Corinth? Galatia? Laodicea? Philadelphia? And on and on I could go. Do you know? If you do, please share scripture saying so. Also, do you have any record of a pastor being ordained in the Bible? Please share. How about elders? (plural) Yes!!! There is a record of elders being ordained, but not pastors.



You are asking if I have a problem with authority. I don't believe I do. Do you have a problem with quoting scripture that the pastor has authority over me? I'd like to see it if you do. Are you a pastor? I think that I remember that you are. Could you quote scripture about submitting? I believe in submitting. Who does the Bible say we are to submit to?

Brother, you seem to want to discount the passage of scripture about being a servant if you are wanting to be the chief.

What does this verse mean to you?

27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Does a servant have authority over his master?

Please respond.

By the way, I do have a problem with false doctrine, so if you have scripture to back up what you're saying, that would be appreciated. Okay?

And . . . the answer to the last questions about the home church and the leader/pastor? Yes and yes.

You seem to have missed my entire point.
The above passage is not about church government.
It is about dealing with an issue among the twelve.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

You seem to have missed my entire point.
The above passage is not about church government.
It is about dealing with an issue among the twelve.

I disagree. It is about relationships among the disciples, and the desire to have a hierarchy. How can you deny that?

Remember the two wanted to be elevated above the others?

Jesus said if you want to be chief, be a servant. We have been talking about authority of the pastor, but you can't see the relevance? Read it again. It is MOST relevant!



[25] But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
[26] But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
[27] And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant

Let me get another reference . . .

1 Peter 5

[1] The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
[2] Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
[3] Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock

Does this qualify as church government?

Peter equates himself to the elders. Notice that he is NOT addressing the pastor (singular) but elders (plural). He is an elder also. He says to feed the flock that is AMONG you, not the flock that is BENEATH you. Do you get it? He is not touting his authority, he instead puts himself on their level.

Then he says to lead by example, he doesn't mention authority. He specifically says for them NOT to lord over the flock.

How about you give scripture where the pastor has authority over the saints, that should be easy! (It will not be.)

[1ofthechosen]

[QUOTE=Tithesmeister;1536110
I have a question for you (okay a compound one). Who was the pastor of the church of Jerusalem? Colosse? Rome? Phillipi? Macedonia? Corinth? Galatia? Laodicea? Philadelphia? And on and on I could go. Do you know? If you do, please share scripture saying so. Also, do you have any record of a pastor being ordained in the Bible? Please share. How about elders? (plural) Yes!!! There is a record of elders being ordained, but not pastors.

[/QUOTE]



Look in the book of Revelations 1:16 "And he had IN HIS RIGHT HAND SEVEN STARS: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength." What meaneth these seven stars? Go to verse 19 "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

And we know angel in these passages is referring to by definition "especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor. "
Now I can prove it go with me to 2:18-23 "And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; [19] I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. [20] Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. [21] And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. [22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. [23] And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

Now where I'm going with this? Because this is what the Pastor is announcing to the rest of the church, you know how I know? Now verse 24 "BUT UNTO YOU I SAY, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden." Who is this talking to when it says "unto you I say?" The Pastor by definition the messenger of the house. This has nothing to do with a angelic being, and Verse 24 proves that because an angel can't follow false doctrine, and not sin. And if they sin there is no repentance provided.

So now this all fits with Hebrews 13:7"Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation." Who did Revelations show this to be, the angel of the house "the pastor." Now verse 17 is clear "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." Verse 7 shows who they are that have rule over you, and so does Revelations Reveal what verse 7 is speaking of, a pastor.

Now why it doesnt talk more of this, IDK. But the NT is the times of the Apostles and that's what it focuses on. It doesn't go into detail about the Pastor because in it's definition it shows headship. Pastor or "poimen" means "the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church, of the overseers of the Christian assemblies." Which this is given by the Bishop, and the Apostles were the Bishops per Acts 1:20.

The Pastor is also a Elder btw in the church. They can be said interchangeably. There has to be a leader and the word Pastor is self explanatory if we see it one time in scripture its making itself clear what it means, by definition.

Threre is no ordination because the true Pastor of Gods church is appointed by God. The same way the Apostles were, hand picked. As my Pastor is, not that all pastors in buildings are. Which that would be safe to say that's also not Gods church, despite what it says on the door!

Have a goodnight we've had this conversation before. No reason to rehash it. But its real simple if you don't want to see it you won't.