Was Jesus born again?

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by staysharp

Umnn...please don't take offense to what I'm about to say. My thoughts and perspective come from having been raised apostolic and ordained within the UPC for over 22 years.

The problem lies in dishonesty. Telling someone they are "born again" because they do 3 things or 2 things, etc. is fundamentally dishonest. We are born again by the will of God and not of man.

I have been in ministry and have watched "the sanctified" struggle with every sin issue under the sun. Nobody in this life will ever overcome sin. It is who we are. This entire concept tells people that they are supposed to be "born again" and no longer struggle with sin because they are no longer who they "used to be". Hogwash.

We are born again when God raises us up from the grave and gives us a new glorified body, but until that happens, we can rest in the grace of God and the finished work of Christ to handle our own brokenness.

By being honest with believers and telling them they will continue to struggle and giving them the grace and love to make mistakes, we keep the hypocrisy out of the church. blessings.

You really should reread Romans 6,7,8 in every Bible version you can. Paul clearly teaches that if we walk after the Spirit, after coming to the Lord, we will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Just because many may not seem to do it 100% of the time, that doesn't mean its not possible. We are sanctified as much as we will to be because we are a new creation. I've sinned so many times after being born again, that I was afraid there was no more grace for me. However one can see the chastisement of the Lord as witness that you are still his child and HE wants to help you overcome whatever it is you are sinning in. Thank God for Mercy.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

You really should reread Romans 6,7,8 in every Bible version you can. Paul clearly teaches that if we walk after the Spirit, after coming to the Lord, we will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Just because many may not seem to do it 100% of the time, that doesn't mean its not possible.

Amen! Rom 7:6 says there is more to it than knowing we must serve God. There are the two avenues to serve Him, while most instinctively know only the one which is human effort, and most who go by their instincts never seek to learn if there are any other options. But the true avenue is newness of Spirit. Oldness of the letter is simply human will power to do as best as one can. But serving in newness of the Spirit is walking after the Spirit, or relying upon the Spirit's strength after conscious rendering of our lives and bodies to God for His Spirit's empowerment. Those who think they cannot overcome sin usually have never truly understood Rom 7:6; 6:11-13 and Gal 5's reference to walking after the Spirit to not fulfill lusts of the flesh. So they think the quest for victory over sin to be futile.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Fulness has to come to be justified according to context. It is natural law and scripture is complete with examples of God's justice WHEN SIN OR RIGHTEOUSNESS HAPPEN! It is has nothing to do with his foreknowledge. He judges based up reality of it happening and responds in proper to us with his justice.

It has to know with KNOWLEDGE since God said "NOW I KNOW". And notice the root word of foreKNOWLEDGE.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It has to know with KNOWLEDGE since God said "NOW I KNOW". And notice the root word of foreKNOWLEDGE.

Mike your missing my point. Now I know is a point of consideration. It can be meant in several ways. Foreknowledge does not negate God's interaction IN time. His foreknowledge is knowledge of how he "would" act justly within time or reality. So Now I know is a real time statement.

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I think your solution solves nothing except pushing the problem back from the phrase "born again" and because of this you are forced to introduce a new phrase in order to ask the same question: What does it take for a Christian to reach the place so that after they die God will raise them up from the grave and give them a new glorified body? That is what we are interested in. If you want to call that place I asked about being born again or something else then sobeit. But at least tell us what we must do to get to that place.

Well, believe and receive the finished work of Christ. He has secured our salvation with his blood. We are saved by his obedience, not ours and I'm really not sure what your question would be after that? Romans 10 teaches us that if we confess with our mouth and believe with our heart that God raised Jesus from the dead we will be saved. It doesn't say we will be re-born in this present state, it says we will be saved. its only after the resurrection that we are born of the spirit.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by staysharp

Well, believe and receive the finished work of Christ. He has secured our salvation with his blood. We are saved by his obedience, not ours and I'm really not sure what your question would be after that? Romans 10 teaches us that if we confess with our mouth and believe with our heart that God raised Jesus from the dead we will be saved. It doesn't say we will be re-born in this present state, it says we will be saved. its only after the resurrection that we are born of the spirit.

not according to Romans 6 and 8

When we are baptized we are put into Christ's death and therefore are able to walk in the newness of life by his resurrection

Romans 8 shows how walking after the Spirit nullifies the need to fulfill the lusts of the flesh

1 John talks about being born of God


If it were not possible to be born again until the resurrection, these scriptures would not exist.

neither would this one


<< 2 Corinthians 5:17 >>


New International Version (©1984)
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Nobody said you do away with the flesh and there is no struggle. He has given you power over the flesh.

"finished work of Christ" Sorry but that is clearly not jargon used by most UPC teachers. It is usually used of OSAS advocates. THe Work of Christ is never "finished" it is on going in your life in which HE sets you apart in his righteousness and you respond and the Spirit bears witness to your faith in him or lawlessness. In the end you are found "faithful" or "lawless" and judged according to your works.

So when Jesus said "it is finished" what does that mean to you?

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by staysharp

So when Jesus said "it is finished" what does that mean to you?

It sure doesn't mean everything we need was finished.. why do you think he told them to wait for the Holy Ghost.

Jesus said it is finished to mean his passion, his atonement for our sins. There was still much more to do and He is still doing it today by the Holy Spirit.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by staysharp

So when Jesus said "it is finished" what does that mean to you?

Is it used in ANYWAY in reference to OSAS meaning? No! How is it used in the Bible? Nothing like they use it.

His time had come to completion and his purpose was met. Has nothing to do with how they use it.

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

not according to Romans 6 and 8

When we are baptized we are put into Christ's death and therefore are able to walk in the newness of life by his resurrection

Romans 8 shows how walking after the Spirit nullifies the need to fulfill the lusts of the flesh

1 John talks about being born of God


If it were not possible to be born again until the resurrection, these scriptures would not exist.

neither would this one


<< 2 Corinthians 5:17 >>


New International Version (©1984)
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

none of which I have said nullify these scriptures. to be born of God is to trust fully in the work of Christ, however its only possible through the resurrection.

The hard facts are that we are not "super spiritual beings" whose dna has been altered by "supernatural anointing". We are just believers who are attempting to serve Christ and He empowers us. When we are truly "changed" and we become "like him" we are truly born again of the spirit. Our flesh no longer has control of us. This only happens when the flesh dies.