Forgiveness or Remission?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I have seen more people filled with the Holy Ghost on their knees in prayer than in the baptistry. If people don’t become forgiven until baptism, then how do they receive baptism of the Spirit before water baptism. Your logic is that people born of the Spirit are still in their sins until water baptism. People who are filled with the Spirit will definitely want to become baptized. I am not refuting baptism, but baptism is a work of repentance and not repentance itself.

What is "remission of sins"? I have proven from Scripture that forgiveness and remission are THE SAME THING. I have proven from Scripture that sins are forgiven in baptism. I have proven from Scripture that Christ's death secures the pardon of our sin, and that Christ's death is effectually applied to us in baptism.

You ask about "The Cornelius Exception", people receiving the Spirit before being baptized. Apparently they got the Holy Ghost before making any altar call, praying Jesus into their heart, or "feeling lots of remorse and emotion" as you described "repentance".

Matthew 10:1-8 KJV
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. [2] Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; [3] Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; [4] Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. [5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: [6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. [8] Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Judas, whom Jesus identified as a "devil", had Holy Ghost miracle working power. Did God anoint a devil to preach Jesus Name revivals with power and signs following? Apparently, if we accept your terminology.

The Gentiles in Acts 10 were an EXCEPTION, precisely because nobody would ever baptize them without a divine intervention to show that Gentiles also are eligible for the New Covenant. How can you be a licensed UPC preacher and not know these things? Well, never mind about that. Some folks get the Holy Ghost before baptism. Some in baptism. Some after baptism. That has no bearing on the Bible Fact that baptism is for the remission (forgiveness) of sins.

[Esaias]

Repentance is not "emotion from regret". Judas had that. He had it so bad he offed himself. The emotion of GODLY SORROW however is what will PRODUCE REPENTANCE. Thus proving repentance is not an emotion or a cathartic emotional release, but a turning that is the RESULT of the tissue-time at the altar:

2 Corinthians 7:9-10 KJV
Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. [10] For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

[good samaritan]

That emotion of regret is what brings us to repents. I first feel bad for my wrong then I change.

[good samaritan]

The. Difference between godly sorrow and sorrow of the world is the outcome. godly sorrow leads us to change, but when our sorrow just becomes a dark hopeless place it is just a sorrow of the world. Peter wept bitterly for his failure and he repented!

[good samaritan]

You ask about "The Cornelius Exception", people receiving the Spirit before being baptized. Apparently they got the Holy Ghost before making any altar call, praying Jesus into their heart, or "feeling lots of remorse and emotion" as you described "repentance".

Never heard it called a Cornelius exception. That sounds as if no one else is filled with the Holy Ghost before baptism. A little for me, because I was baptized in the Spirit before the water. Besides evidence of tongues I experienced the fruit of the Spirit. I then knew I must be baptized. The Cornelius exception happens very frequently to be called an exception. Since you proving things by scripture, Where does the Bible call this an exception?

[Esaias]

How familiar is this scenario?

Sinners come to the meeting, hear about sin and salvation, they are exhorted to "get right with God" etc, they come to the front at the altar call, Sister Pianoplayer plays the plaintive music, the sinners pray and are crying, maybe some "pray through to the Holy Ghost". Then after the meeting MAYBE they are told to make an appointment to get baptized next week or later that month.

So the preacher and the saints conclude "God is saving people and giving them the Holy Ghost in our Baptist-style evangelistic altar call meetings more often than at the baptism ceremonies."

But what's really happening here?

Maybe God is working around the unbiblical traditions of religious practice. God probably saves more people in spite of religious customs than because of them. Maybe things would go differently if instead people were told to "answer the altar call" by coming forward to the baptistry instead of a platform rail? Maybe things would go differently if we just did Bible things in the Bible way, instead of doing what is popular and common...

[good samaritan]

I will continue to have alter calls. I just don’t limit to a certain day of the week and location. People can repent anywhere. We have made some unscheduled trips to a local creek down the street.

[good samaritan]

I haven’t a problem with a baptism ceremony, but if people aren’t repenting they are just getting wet. John the Baptist strongly preached repentance. I have seen many baptized that evidently it never took, because the next day they where right back into sin. That is why I don’t push kids to be baptized, because they are quick to do it cause everyone else is and they often never have a real conversion. You can mock all you want about people having alter calls, but I am thankful for that emotional event that begun my journey for God.

[james34]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How familiar is this scenario?

Sinners come to the meeting, hear about sin and salvation, they are exhorted to "get right with God" etc, they come to the front at the altar call, Sister Pianoplayer plays the plaintive music, the sinners pray and are crying, maybe some "pray through to the Holy Ghost". Then after the meeting MAYBE they are told to make an appointment to get baptized next week or later that month.

So the preacher and the saints conclude "God is saving people and giving them the Holy Ghost in our Baptist-style evangelistic altar call meetings more often than at the baptism ceremonies."

But what's really happening here?

Maybe God is working around the unbiblical traditions of religious practice. God probably saves more people in spite of religious customs than because of them. Maybe things would go differently if instead people were told to "answer the altar call" by coming forward to the baptistry instead of a platform rail? Maybe things would go differently if we just did Bible things in the Bible way, instead of doing what is popular and common...

All of the opinion about the situation really doesn’t matter, just the fact that it happens. (God fills non baptized people with the Holy Ghost. So is God filling people with the Holy Ghost while they are still accountable for past sins?

[good samaritan]

1 Corinthians 1:14-17
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Paul here discussed how carnal people where following the different personalities of the church in their day. Evidently these carnal people where associating themselves to who it was that baptized them. Paul made the statement that he wasn’t called to baptize, but to preach, and that he had baptized very few people. Evidently Paul felt he would preach and then just leave everyone in their sins??? Instead, IMO Paul intrusted that others in the body would later perform baptism upon the converts that he made.

I say this over and over again! I believe that we must baptized in Jesus name and it is not optional. Where we differ is that I believe forgiveness takes place when you ask in repentance. God discerns the heart of the repentant and therefore Gods forgives accordingly as he sees fit. Thus the reason that I initially said forgiveness is the work of God alone. We cannot manipulate him through baptism, but we must have true repentance. Just like you and I, we would not want to forgive someone we know was not sorry. Even if they apologized and followed few instructions. God literally knows what is in our hearts.