Forgiveness or Remission?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Never heard it called a Cornelius exception. ... Since you proving things by scripture, Where does the Bible call this an exception?

It's my term. I call it the Cornelius exception because in the Bible, the order of events in a conversion is hear the Gospel, get baptized, receive the Holy Ghost. But in Cornelius' case (and the other gentiles who were gathered with him to hear Peter), the pattern was hear the Gospel, receive the Holy Ghost, get baptized. It is a singular event repeated nowhere else in Scripture, so therefore qualifies as an "exception" to the normative "hear, baptized, receive" pattern elsewhere followed in Scripture.

And my point was that you are pointing to that exceptional pattern (the pattern of events in the conversion of the first gentiles to the Gospel) as a response to me pointing out the normative usual pattern of conversion in Scripture. So I addressed the issue, because the conversion of Cornelius does NOT serve as a "gotcha" refutation of the normative pattern of salvation found in the book of Acts. As I said, the exception proves the rule. And in fact Luke's account of the events and the discussion among the brethren that followed (see ch 11) demonstrates that it was indeed an exception due to the early church's failure to immediately begin evangelizing gentiles. They were still under the impression that gentiles could not be saved as gentiles but must first become Jews. That error persisted for some time and was THE major issue in the early church during the first century prior to AD 70.

Now, looking forward through history, down to our day, I believe God includes things in His Word so that all Christians in every time and every culture can derive benefit and learn. In our case, we are today faced with the question of "Why do some people receive the Holy Ghost before baptism, and why do others get baptised and yet it is some time later that they receive the Spirit? Why doesn't everybody get it exactly the same way, in the same order?"

Now, I do not have a answer as to "Why" things happen the way they do. But I see in scripture some get baptised and do not necessarily receive the Spirit right away (Samaritans, for example). I also see where some receive the Spirit prior to being baptised, even right in the middle of the evangelistic sermon (Cornelius and company). And I see others who hear and are baptised and receive the Spirit right after being baptised, as part of the same event (disciples of John in Acts 19). So what I see in Scripture is provision for a Biblical ground of faith and assurance for the many even today, who either have a waiting period after baptism before they receive the Spirit or for those who receive the Spirit prior to baptism. Both scenarios are found in Scripture, therefore both are valid, as much as the hear, baptised, receive all-in-the-same-meeting folks.

But the exception (notice, only in the case of the first gentiles did people receive the Spirit before being baptised) does not overthrow the general template or pattern of hear, baptism, Holy Ghost found in all the other examples. Even in the case of the Samaritans, where there is a gap of time between their baptisms and their receiving of the Spirit, the same basic pattern is found - hear, baptised, receive. In the case of the gentiles, nobody was evagelising them at that time, nobody would have accepted them as candidates for baptism unless they also submitted to circumcision. Baptism was a mikvah, a rite of Judaism, now understood as being a mikvah or baptism into Messiah, who was for Israel, not uncircumcised gentiles. So God gave them the Spirit proving to the church that yes gentiles need to be baptised and accepted into the congregation just like Judeans.

[Esaias]

Now, it is time for the other side to present a simple Bible study. I have done such, I have presented Bible passages that teach what I am saying here. Now it is time for the other side (especially the pastor) to present a simple straightforward Bible study establishing their doctrine (teaching):

We need a Bible study that does the following:

1. Proves that the Bible teaches a difference between remission and forgiveness, and what that difference is.

2. Prove that the Bible teaches people receive forgiveness of sins before being baptised.

There's a few other things that need to be proven by Scripture, but we can start with these two, since the others depend on how the first two go.

[Esaias]

Anyone?

[james34]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Anyone?

So you believe that one can be baptized in the Holy Ghost, without being forgiven of their sins?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by james34

So you believe that one can be baptized in the Holy Ghost, without being forgiven of their sins?

So you believe that one can be baptized in the Holy Ghost, without being remitted of their sins?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Now, it is time for the other side to present a simple Bible study. I have done such, I have presented Bible passages that teach what I am saying here. Now it is time for the other side (especially the pastor) to present a simple straightforward Bible study establishing their doctrine (teaching):

We need a Bible study that does the following:

1. Proves that the Bible teaches a difference between remission and forgiveness, and what that difference is.

2. Prove that the Bible teaches people receive forgiveness of sins before being baptised.

There's a few other things that need to be proven by Scripture, but we can start with these two, since the others depend on how the first two go.

Anyone?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Anyone?

It's hard for people to give up their pagan, Roman, or Pentecostal traditions even as truth is staring them in the face. It's sad really.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How familiar is this scenario?

Sinners come to the meeting, hear about sin and salvation, they are exhorted to "get right with God" etc, they come to the front at the altar call, Sister Pianoplayer plays the plaintive music, the sinners pray and are crying, maybe some "pray through to the Holy Ghost". Then after the meeting MAYBE they are told to make an appointment to get baptized next week or later that month.

So the preacher and the saints conclude "God is saving people and giving them the Holy Ghost in our Baptist-style evangelistic altar call meetings more often than at the baptism ceremonies."

But what's really happening here?

Maybe God is working around the unbiblical traditions of religious practice. God probably saves more people in spite of religious customs than because of them. Maybe things would go differently if instead people were told to "answer the altar call" by coming forward to the baptistry instead of a platform rail? Maybe things would go differently if we just did Bible things in the Bible way, instead of doing what is popular and common...

I may be wrong here, yet, I'll say this. You're correct, we may not have a blueprint how everything was ran inside a church "service" in the times of Acts. And therefore what we do have, you can say church in the modern era is operated in a unbiblical traditional way, and I do believe you. Yet, what you have and what you see is based on what has worked for others. People are guilty of preaching and following what has worked for them individually and as a church body.

Originally Posted by Esaias

So the preacher and the saints conclude "God is saving people and giving them the Holy Ghost in our Baptist-style evangelistic altar call meetings more often than at the baptism ceremonies."

*Just a side note*
I just recently heard, a "big wig" in the baptist organization stated publicly that baptists are going to return to their Holy Ghost speaking in Tongues heritage.... Things looks like it's going to get interesting.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Amanah

It's hard for people to give up their pagan, Roman, or Pentecostal traditions even as truth is staring them in the face. It's sad really.

You are very proud. I have been meaning to respond, but have not the time at the moment. I do have a life outside of AFF.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Amanah

It's hard for people to give up their pagan, Roman, or Pentecostal traditions even as truth is staring them in the face. It's sad really.

If a person has truth, there is no reason to post disparaging remarks against the other side. If you feel people on AFF are a bunch of heretics that you are wasting your time having dialogue, why waste your time. I really try to post things with meekness. I am subject to be wrong like anyone else on here. If I don’t agree, I continue to discuss, but I am not posting out of anger or offended at anyone who doesn’t agree with my point of view.