UPC doctrinal contradiction

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

no James taught works evidence faith

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

actually no... faith is contextual and works bring about justification of that faith. Thus faith is judged not simply evidenced! Many spects to justification and how justive is done in God's economy. We do justice unto God and he does justice unto us!

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Sam

This is from pages 99 - 100 of James: Faith at Work, A Commentary by Daniel Segraves, copyright 1995 by Word Aflame Press

Expressing continuing concern for merciful treatment of
the poor (verses 15-17), James uses two radically diverse
examples, Abraham and Rahab, to show that genuine faith
results in concrete demonstrations of compassion for others.
In so doing, the letter dramatically illustrates that doctrinal
purity alone is merely dead orthodoxy (verses 19-20).
...

1. Rhetorical Question (2:14)
Verse 14. The stark question, “Can faith save [apart from
works],” with its understood negative answer has caused
some to think that James contradicts Paul’s emphasis on salvation
by grace through faith and not by works. (See Ephesians
2:8-9; Romans 4:2, 6; 9:32; 11:6; Galatians 2:16;

3:2, 5; II Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5; Hebrews 4:10.) But God
inspired both authors, and the resulting Scripture contains
no contradictions. The problem is solved when we
realize that words are defined by their context. Paul used
“works” in a negative way to describe activity done, not
from a basis of genuine faith, but from a vain attempt to
earn favor with God and thus to merit or deserve salvation.
(See Romans 9:32.) By contrast, James used
“works” to mean the natural result of genuine faith in God
(2:21-26).

Paul and James also used the word “faith” differently.
In Paul’s writings, faith is a vibrant, active belief in God
that dramatically alters one’s behavior (Romans 4:12;
14:23; 16:26; I Corinthians 16:13; II Corinthians 4:13;
Galatians 2:20; 5:6; Philippians 2:17; I Thessalonians
1:3; I Timothy 6:12). In the context of James, it is mere
mental assent to the facts of Christian doctrine without a
behavior-transforming abandonment of one’s life to the
Person described by those doctrines (2:17-20, 26).

From the viewpoint of James, words are cheap. A person
can say he has faith, but there is no value to his confession
if it is not accompanied by practical expressions
of obedience to God (2:21-24) and concern for others
(2:15-17, 25). Such “faith” is not salvific. Truly, it is not
genuine faith, but “dead” faith (2:26).

Faith is not what will be judged in the end. WORKS.OBEDIENCE will be just like Abraham! He obtained the promise BY OBEDIENCE as do we. HEbrews 5:9 says it is to those who OBEY! THus your belief is judged FAITHFUL or not to his WORD.

Joh 12:44 And Jesus cried out and said, "Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.
Joh 12:45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.
Joh 12:46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.
Joh 12:47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment--what to say and what to speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me."



Joh 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. WORKS JUSTIFY!
Joh 15:9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.
Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.

Friendship is justified by obedience to his Word!

Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Eternal Life will be judgment by deeds as through obedience we obtain right to it at the eschatological judgement. THis is constantly taught!

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

The problem with the UPCI on this issue is that they have their own definitions of "faith", "justification" & "sanctification." They can use the words because they are familiar theological terms. However, when they get right down to defining them, they don't mean what most everyone else thinks they mean. No matter how they slice it, at least as far as DKB is concerned, one is not rapture ready until AFTER one has spoken with tongues. It doesn't matter how much one's life has changed. It doesn't matter how much one has surrendered their life to Jesus Christ. If they're not baptized in Jesus' name AND spoke in tongues, they're not going to heaven.

They use the terms to try to fit in with others but when it gets down to it, the terms mean absolutely nothing because of the definitions the UPCI holds.

well much of the Evangelical community argues over the two as well so quit acting like the UPC is doing something insane.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Sam

Amen
in my opinion the Apostles' Creed is Christianity 101.

Also, in my opinion, a person who believes and confesses the Apostles' Creed is justified/saved/born again according to John 3:16; Romans 10:8-13; 1 John 5:1

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Sam

In my opinion
"Faith without works" in Romans is from God's aspect because He can see our faith in our heart. And, when we have that faith He instantly justifies us apart from any works which we may do. I think that's what Paul is talking about when he says that Abram was justified/made righteous at the moment he believed God.

"Works which display or prove faith" is from man's aspect because we can't see faith in people's hearts. We can only see the outward manifestation of it. Someone may claim faith in God but if it doesn't show up in his/her actions we figure it is only "head faith" and not "heart faith."

James is not about man setting himself before other men. His point was arguementative toward another person not that THAT HIS WORKS WHERE JUSTIFIED BY MAN! THat is the most insane reading of the text and has no support as his focus is about JUSTIFICATION AND SALVATION of a BELIEVER! MAn has nothing to do with salvation toward another in justification!

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Are you saying obedience has nothing to do with salvation?

I'm saying after we are saved by faith our heart will be different and we will live a life surrendered to God. Part of that surrender will be obedience to the leading of the Holy Spirit and to the Word of God as we understand it.

[TheLegalist]

[QUOTE=Sam;937963]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

...
Justification comes freely. It comes through faith, not works or legal obedience. Justification is not merited, earned, or deserved. The source of justification is the grace of God. pg.89
...
/QUOTE]

That's actually on page 90, the last full paragraph near the bottom of the page in the copy of the book that I have. Bro. Bernard concludes the paragraph with:
"Grace is the unmerited favor of God towards men."

which is sadly a very poor blanket meaning placed on grace. sad sad sad

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Sam

I'm saying after we are saved by faith our heart will be different and we will live a life surrendered to God. Part of that surrender will be obedience to the leading of the Holy Spirit and to the Word of God as we understand it.

quit dodging Sam. Is a believer justified before God by works or not at the end judgment? If you don't think so then you have to be OSAS!

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

What happens to the sinner who places faith in Jesus Christ? He is justified. The word justified is a legal term denoting right standing or vindication in the eyes of the law. In the context of this verse, the verb “to justify” means “to count as righteous, to declare righteous.” God declares the believer to be righteous and therefore entitled to all privileges of that status, including eternal salvation. God removes the guilt and condemnation of sin. He removes sin’s stain both from His records and from man’s conscience. “A man who has faith is now freely acquitted in the eyes of God by his generous dealing in the Redemptive Act of Jesus Christ” pg. 89-90 (the last sentance is a quote from Phillips that Bernard uses)

Justification comes freely. It comes through faith, not works or legal obedience. Justification is not merited, earned, or deserved. The source of justification is the grace of God. pg.89

If we believe in Christ and what He did for us, then His work becomes effective in our lives.pg 92

In other words, the propitiation is effective because of two things: blood and faith. The propitiation itself came by the blood of Christ. We apply the propitiation to our lives through faith. The basis of justification, then, is the blood of Christ. pg.92

In summary, Romans 3:21-26 is one of the key passages of the Book of Romans and indeed of the entire Bible. It explains the fundamental principles of salvation for all mankind and enunciates the doctrine of justification by faith: on the basis of Christ’s death, God freely declares sinners to be righteous through their faith in Jesus Christ. pg. 94

God counts us righteous because of our faith in Him, not because of good works or strict adherence to law. We are justified “apart from the deeds of the law.” We cannot earn salvation in any way. God does not reward our good works or our holiness by granting salvation. We do not live holy in order to be saved; we live holy because we are saved. We do not work to salvation; we work from salvation. pg.95-96

“As Paul elsewhere shows, faith will result in obedience, and justification will issue in holy living, but the truth that justification is by faith alone is the very heart of Christianity.” pg. 96 (Bernard quotes Erdman)

Justification by faith does not mean mental acceptance instead of obedience, nor does it mean believing instead of doing. Rather it means pleading the merits of Christ instead of our own merits. p.100



Theres alot more. I have recently read William Barlcay's commentary on Romans and Warren Wieserbe's commentary on Romans. DKB's is almost verbatim, with the exception of the insertion of the "note of saving faith" which appears beginning on page .99, in which note he equates saving faith with obedience to Acts 2:38 (as interpreted by the three stepper crowd). My point being, lets just allow the word to speak to us, and not redefine what it says, or say "well it says this, BUT it really means this." IOW, let me change the definition of faith, then I can say the same things all the mainstream guys do. Basically what it boils down to, because even though Bernards comments basically mirror what I have read from others, His meaning is completely different.

After Bro. Bernard writes this he then defines the faith that justifies:

He says on page 98:
Since many people have interpreted the doctrine of justification by faith to mean “easy believism,” it is important at this juncture to explain clearly what saving faith is in the New Testament.

On page 99 he says:
Saving faith then, includes appropriation or application a well as acceptance. We cannot separate it from obedience.

On page 101 he says:
Saving faith is a continuous relationship, not just a point in time.... To inherit eternal life, we must live continually by faith, which means walking in obedience....

On page 102 he says:
Faith in Christ finds expression in obedience to Acts 2:38, thus enabling the sinner to be born of water and of the Spirit,without which he cannot be saved.

-----------------------

Bro. Bernard does not recognize a faith which does not obey Acts 2:38 (as he understands it) and which then walks in continued obedience. I agree that faith is more than intellectual assent or head faith and that faith results in actions, but I do not narrowly define those actions as water baptism in Jesus’ name plus receiving the Holy Ghost baptism, plus a life of obedience. I believe that after a person is saved by faith there will be fruit in their life and changes in their life style but they will be a result of being saved or born again and not part of the process of being saved or born again.

I guess where I see it differently is that I think (so this is my opinion) what Romans 4:3 means is that Genesis 15:6 which Paul quotes there means that God justified Abram or counted him righteous or saved him or regenerated him (to use a couple of New Testament terms) because he believed God and that justification/salvation happened before he was circumcised and before he took Isaac to the mountain to sacrifice him. It is my opinion that a person is justified/saved/born again at the moment of faith and this is true whether that person ever does get baptized or ever does receive the Holy Ghost Baptism. I know people that I consider Christians, believers, and children of God who have never been immersed in water and who have not spoken with tongues.

This is why I can attend a church which is considered trinity and why I can accept ordination in a church which is considered trinity. This is why I can be part of FGBMFI, which has trinitarians in it, and why I can fellowship people who are considered trinitarians and I can accept them as brothers and sisters in God’s family and as members of the Body of Christ.

A few verses which I base this on are:

For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36

I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life. John 5:24

And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. Ephesians 1:13

He is the one all the prophets testified about, saying that everyone who believes in him will have their sins forgiven through his name. Acts 10:43

8 God knows people’s hearts, and he confirmed that he accepts Gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he cleansed their hearts through faith. Acts 15:8-9

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has become a child of God. 1 John 5:1
or, as The Living Bible says:
If you believe that Jesus is the Christ --that He is God’s Son and your Savior-- then you are a child of God.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Sam

After Bro. Bernard writes this he then defines the faith that justifies:

He says on page 98:
Since many people have interpreted the doctrine of justification by faith to mean “easy believism,” it is important at this juncture to explain clearly what saving faith is in the New Testament.

On page 99 he says:
Saving faith then, includes appropriation or application a well as acceptance. We cannot separate it from obedience.

On page 101 he says:
Saving faith is a continuous relationship, not just a point in time.... To inherit eternal life, we must live continually by faith, which means walking in obedience....

On page 102 he says:
Faith in Christ finds expression in obedience to Acts 2:38, thus enabling the sinner to be born of water and of the Spirit,without which he cannot be saved.

-----------------------

Bro. Bernard does not recognize a faith which does not obey Acts 2:38 (as he understands it) and which then walks in continued obedience. I agree that faith is more than intellectual assent or head faith and that faith results in actions, but I do not narrowly define those actions as water baptism in Jesus’ name plus receiving the Holy Ghost baptism, plus a life of obedience. I believe that after a person is saved by faith there will be fruit in their life and changes in their life style but they will be a result of being saved or born again and not part of the process of being saved or born again.

I guess where I see it differently is that I think (so this is my opinion) what Romans 4:3 means is that Genesis 15:6 which Paul quotes there means that God justified Abram or counted him righteous or saved him or regenerated him (to use a couple of New Testament terms) because he believed God and that justification/salvation happened before he was circumcised and before he took Isaac to the mountain to sacrifice him. It is my opinion that a person is justified/saved/born again at the moment of faith and this is true whether that person ever does get baptized or ever does receive the Holy Ghost Baptism. I know people that I consider Christians, believers, and children of God who have never been immersed in water and who have not spoken with tongues.

This is why I can attend a church which is considered trinity and why I can accept ordination in a church which is considered trinity. This is why I can be part of FGBMFI, which has trinitarians in it, and why I can fellowship people who are considered trinitarians and I can accept them as brothers and sisters in God’s family and as members of the Body of Christ.

A few verses which I base this on are:

For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36

I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life. John 5:24

And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. Ephesians 1:13

He is the one all the prophets testified about, saying that everyone who believes in him will have their sins forgiven through his name. Acts 10:43

8 God knows people’s hearts, and he confirmed that he accepts Gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he cleansed their hearts through faith. Acts 15:8-9

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has become a child of God. 1 John 5:1
or, as The Living Bible says:
If you believe that Jesus is the Christ --that He is God’s Son and your Savior-- then you are a child of God.

why does regeneration or salvation occur in Gen 15:6? Justification does not have to involve that. LOL this is the problem so often seen. Justification is being judged JUST "concerning a matter". Does not mean you are saved or have placed trust as a whole or anything. God simply judges your response "just" that is it. Even then PAUL SAYS "believed" was NOT WAS NOT A SINGLE POINT IN TIME! Read the whole of Romans 4.