Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Search For Similiar Threads Using Key Words & Phrases
baptism, church, cogic, pentecostal, trinitarian

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 09-23-2008, 12:24 PM
TRFrance's Avatar
TRFrance TRFrance is offline
Matthew 7:6


 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,768
Re: COGIC - Baptism in Jesus Name

Quote:
Originally Posted by PraiseHymn View Post
My view is this (since there was a thread on this some time ago in regards to a friend of mine doing the same thing). There are plenty of COGIC churches that baptise in Jesus Name (Or Father, Son, Holy Ghost we do all things in Jesus Name) such as Willie James Campbell out of Chicago IL (St. James COGIC) Nathan Simmons old church (Citadel Of Hope Evagelistic COGIC) and even I have been told GE Pattersons church baptised in Jesus Name HOWEVER the truth is YE MUST BE BORN OF THE WATER AND THE SPIRIT. COGIC teach that you can be saved PRIOR to getting the Holy Ghost (beats me, because I have no clue what saves you then....what....just mere confession) which is what the majority of trinitarian churches teach. They teach the Holy Ghost almost as an option.....yet they "admonish" all believers to ask for the Holy Ghost they do not "require" in their teachings that one must be filled with the Holy Ghost and Bapstised in Jesus Name (which we all know consist of the New Birth Experience). My question to you is what is the pastors motives for staying COGIC if in fact he baptises in Jesus Name? Why not pull out and just be independant. My point exactly, people link up with the COGIC because its an Prestigious African American Pentecostal Body (the largest to be exact) and feel by going PAW or COOLJC or any other black apostolic organization will limit there preaching abilities and limit who they get to fellowship with (concerning congregations). This is why Nathan Simmons left the Oneness faith and went COGIC. This is also the reason why Michael Wilson (another Oneness preacher left and went COGIC). They want prestige. So there is a deeper issue here. Its not just a baptisimal thing. As an organization, the COGIC clearly denies the Oneness Apostolic Message. There is no getting around it. What are you going to do when you go to jursidictional meetings. Just not go.....What are you going to do when its convention time....just not go.....you will be fellowshipping with people who DO NOT believe or subscribe in the teachings of the apostles. Granted, its your choice....but understand this.....joining a COGIC church, your liable to get any and every doctrine being preached from the pulpits. It is what it is, and I am just talking from experience. I'd find me an apostolic church and if you like the dancing and shouting this COGIC is doing, just go over there when you want to dance and shout......or for that matter, sit down with the pastor and talk to him about HIS beliefs versus YOUR beliefs. Just my thoughts.
I had no idea these guys were formerly Oneness. You are such a fountain of knowledge, bro. :O)
What denominational background was Nathan Simmons before he went trinny? And when did he switch?

And, are you referring to the Michael Wilson who is head of Hope Cathedral COGIC in Atlanta?
__________________
http://endtimeobserver.blogspot.com
Daniel 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever.

I'm T France, and I approved this message.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09-23-2008, 01:38 PM
Jermyn Davidson's Avatar
Jermyn Davidson Jermyn Davidson is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: In His Hands
Posts: 13,911
Re: COGIC - Baptism in Jesus Name

Quote:
Originally Posted by PraiseHymn View Post
By the way, DC and MD is the mother land for alllllllllllllll kinds of Apostolic Churches. I'd have a field day up there if I lived in the area. I could send you to some COOLJC churches if you'd like.

Refuge Temple COOLJC Bishop Bonner / Michael Fields Pastor in DC
First Apostolic Bishop Showell in Baltimore
Greater Morning Star Apostolic Ministries in DC/MD
Fisherman of Men COOLJC Bishop Groover pastor
Scripture Cathedral Apostles CL Long DC
and the list goes on and on and on ohhhhhhh
Christian Life Center East Germontown MD
So I mean, you dont have to settle for a COGIC church when there are apostolic churches alll around the DC MD area.

There are more Apostolic churches in Baltimore than any other kind of church.

All of them are three stepper congregations.


Truthfully, I believe that a person is saved in according with Romans 10. I believe that the Holy Ghost infilling is there as a Promise from our God and Savior for all those who have believed.

I did not always believe like this. I am coming to grips with the fact that this is how I read the scriptures now.

My family does not know that I have fully embraced this doctrine. Neither do my friends that I have known down through the years. But as I check my own heart, this is how I now believe.
__________________
"The choices we make reveal the true nature of our character."
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 09-23-2008, 03:55 PM
PraiseHymn's Avatar
PraiseHymn PraiseHymn is offline
Saved And Sanctified Since 1992


 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Durham, NC (Born and raised in NYC)
Posts: 375
Re: COGIC - Baptism in Jesus Name

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRFrance View Post
I had no idea these guys were formerly Oneness. You are such a fountain of knowledge, bro. :O)
What denominational background was Nathan Simmons before he went trinny? And when did he switch?

And, are you referring to the Michael Wilson who is head of Hope Cathedral COGIC in Atlanta?
Nathan Simmons was my covering in Atlanta until he went COGIC. He is born and raised in NYC and was baptised in Jesus Name and went to New Jerusalem which was an offshoot of the Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ except they ordained women preachers (yet they still kept the standards and veils). Citadel stareted from a summer tent revival. 100% apostlic until Nathan needed money and fame and fortune. COGIC was willing to make him their new protege. Nathan wanted prestige and fame and he got it. Too bad it was all short lived. Again, he was my covering my entire college years down here until he flipped the script and went to COGIC. I still stayed very close to him up until his dying day. Lord I miss that Simmons. Aint none like him.

Michael Wilson pulled a Nathan Simmons stunt for fame and fortune as well as he was a member of St. John Apostolic Holiness Church until he stated Tabernacle of Hope, changed the name to Hope Cathedral as soon as Nathan died, joined COGIC and thought he was going to be the new "pope of pentecost" after he hired Ricky Dillard as minister of Music. Bishop Chandlier Owens did Citadel dirty, so they left COGIC and now are independant with wife Angelique Simmons as pastor. (Mind you, Chandlier Owens put Michael Wilson over Citadel and they all went running and it split the church).

Whatever you want to know about Apostolics gone COGIC when it comes to ATL, I know it all.

Talk about drama.

Ohhh and dont get me started on Murphy Pace and Powerhouse who was once COGIC and now is Sabbatarian, divorced his wife Lizza and she now is the pastor of El Bethel here in the Atlanta area which is 100% apostolic. The list goes on and on and on with the drama and these churches here in ATL.

So again, you see why its important to at least ask what the motives are for being COGIC while secreatly subscribing to Oneness theology.
__________________
….and since Jesus Christ is the Almighty God, we cannot be defeated!
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-23-2008, 08:11 PM
TRFrance's Avatar
TRFrance TRFrance is offline
Matthew 7:6


 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,768
Re: COGIC - Baptism in Jesus Name

Quote:
Originally Posted by PraiseHymn View Post
Nathan Simmons was my covering in Atlanta until he went COGIC. He is born and raised in NYC and was baptised in Jesus Name and went to New Jerusalem which was an offshoot of the Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ except they ordained women preachers (yet they still kept the standards and veils). Citadel started from a summer tent revival. 100% apostlic until Nathan needed money and fame and fortune. COGIC was willing to make him their new protege. Nathan wanted prestige and fame and he got it. Too bad it was all short lived. Again, he was my covering my entire college years down here until he flipped the script and went to COGIC. I still stayed very close to him up until his dying day. Lord I miss that Simmons. Aint none like him.

Michael Wilson pulled a Nathan Simmons stunt for fame and fortune as well as he was a member of St. John Apostolic Holiness Church until he stated Tabernacle of Hope, changed the name to Hope Cathedral as soon as Nathan died, joined COGIC and thought he was going to be the new "pope of pentecost" after he hired Ricky Dillard as minister of Music. Bishop Chandlier Owens did Citadel dirty, so they left COGIC and now are independent with wife Angelique Simmons as pastor. (Mind you, Chandlier Owens put Michael Wilson over Citadel and they all went running and it split the church).

Whatever you want to know about Apostolics gone COGIC when it comes to ATL, I know it all.

Talk about drama.

Ohhh and dont get me started on Murphy Pace and Powerhouse who was once COGIC and now is Sabbatarian, divorced his wife Lizza and she now is the pastor of El Bethel here in the Atlanta area which is 100% apostolic. The list goes on and on and on with the drama and these churches here in ATL.

So again, you see why its important to at least ask what the motives are for being COGIC while secreatly subscribing to Oneness theology.
Couple of quick questions for you bro...

How did Nathan Simmons die?

From what you've seen of these situations, do you think these men cross over to COGIC but are still secretly subscribing to Oneness, or do u think they have changed over their doctrine from Oneness to Trinity when they went COGIC?

Is Lizza Pace with an organization now, or independent?

Is Murphy Pace the father of gospel singer LaShun Pace?

--------
And one correction. Citadel of Hope seems to be still COGIC... at least their myspace page still describes them as COGIC.[http://www.myspace.com/citadelofhope]
(Maybe they went back to cogic?) Anyway, I thought COGIC didnt allow women pastors. Has that changed?
__________________
http://endtimeobserver.blogspot.com
Daniel 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever.

I'm T France, and I approved this message.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-23-2008, 09:21 PM
PraiseHymn's Avatar
PraiseHymn PraiseHymn is offline
Saved And Sanctified Since 1992


 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Durham, NC (Born and raised in NYC)
Posts: 375
Re: COGIC - Baptism in Jesus Name

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRFrance View Post
Couple of quick questions for you bro...

How did Nathan Simmons die?

From what you've seen of these situations, do you think these men cross over to COGIC but are still secretly subscribing to Oneness, or do u think they have changed over their doctrine from Oneness to Trinity when they went COGIC?

Is Lizza Pace with an organization now, or independent?

Is Murphy Pace the father of gospel singer LaShun Pace?

--------
And one correction. Citadel of Hope seems to be still COGIC... at least their myspace page still describes them as COGIC.[http://www.myspace.com/citadelofhope]
(Maybe they went back to cogic?) Anyway, I thought COGIC didnt allow women pastors. Has that changed?
They say Pastor Simmons died of some type of cancer however rumors say otherwise. All I will say is that we will understand it better by and by if you know what I mean (meaning if wifey dies with this same type of "cancer" then it will be true as far as the rumors....and thats all I can say about that one). To be honest, it just sucks. I've never seen a man rise to fame so quick, was at the mountain top of his ministry and then DIE the way he did. Sad, just sad. (but we did give him a good 2 day homegoing.....one of the best I've been too in years, I'll post a clip of the dancing. I danced myself right into the funeral spray. The morticians were holding me up (pray for me cause I'm a crazy praiser lol)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWfQkgZAyiw




I think in all honesty these men get in where they can fit in. For instance, Huie Rogers came down and preached a revival at Citadel one year, he preached a hardcore Apostolic message, the born and raised COGIC folks were steaming mad. However Nathan Simmons was happy proclaiming that he baptised in "The Name". Then, trinitarians have mounted the podium and preached there God in 3 persons blessed trinity message, and Nathan Simmons just agreed right along with them. So again, I belive they get in where they fit in. People pleasers.

Lizza Pace is with El Bethel, thats Bishop Robert Evans former apostolic organization that he presided over before he died.

Murphy Pace is the only brother of the Pace Sisters (which includes LaShun Pace). The Pace's mother and father have a "old school" cogic church somewhere here in Georgia. They all are preachers kids.

The COGIC tolerate women preachers however they dont put them in the offices of Bishop. They limit them to Evangelist however they do recognize that there are women that are in pastorial roles (though far and few). Kinda like a "see no evil hear no evil" sort of doctrine.

Citadel has not changed there myspace page in a long time. Its a known fact they are not COGIC anymore.
__________________
….and since Jesus Christ is the Almighty God, we cannot be defeated!
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09-23-2008, 09:36 PM
theoldpaths theoldpaths is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 495
Re: COGIC - Baptism in Jesus Name

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1399 View Post
There are more Apostolic churches in Baltimore than any other kind of church.

All of them are three stepper congregations.


Truthfully, I believe that a person is saved in according with Romans 10. I believe that the Holy Ghost infilling is there as a Promise from our God and Savior for all those who have believed.

I did not always believe like this. I am coming to grips with the fact that this is how I read the scriptures now.

My family does not know that I have fully embraced this doctrine. Neither do my friends that I have known down through the years. But as I check my own heart, this is how I now believe.
First context, Romans was written by Paul to the CHURCH of Rome - he was writing to people who were already saved.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

v.9 - notice is says - shalt be saved - not are saved - its just like Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved - that's future tense

v.10 - notice "unto" salvation - not salvation, but unto salvation - Acts 2:38 doesn't mean anything unless one believes first. One has to believe first before moving onto anything else concerning NT salvation. One should BELIEVE first before they even repent. If one doesn't believe, what is even the point of repenting? Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

v.13 - Peter quoted the exact same verse which comes from Joel in the same context of God pouring out his Spirit...

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Notice that the exact same people that Peter quoted Acts 2:21 to from the book of Joel, when they asked "what shall we do" in v. 37, Peter did NOT tell them to just call upon the name of the Lord, or repeat after me, or quote John 3:16, or tell them to bow their heads and say some sinner's prayer.

Peter was aware of the prophecy of Joel in the CONTEXT of God pouring out his Spirit, but when it came down to it, Peter used the keys that Jesus gave him to preach in Luke 24:47-49.

v. 14-15 - Notice that they can't call on him, until they believe what is preached to them by a preacher sent from God preaching the salvation message that Jesus gave to them. Peter was the first to preach it, their response was conviction and asking what they should do, and Peter told them exactly what they needed to do. Peter told them what the proper response is to sinner's hearing, believing, and being convicted of their sin and needing to do something about it.

Was it different for the salvation of the Samaritans in Acts 8 and the Gentiles in Acts 10 and the disciples of John in Acts 19? No it was all the same because there is only 1 way to be saved.

Mark's version of the great commission - Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved - blows just believing and repenting right out of the water.

So does Act 19:2 - Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Had they rec'd the Holy Ghost SINCE they believed - not WHEN they believed.

If you were a 3 stepper apostolic before and are now a 1 stepper, then what has lead you to that change? How did you come to that change?
__________________
Jer 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls...
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 09-23-2008, 10:53 PM
Jermyn Davidson's Avatar
Jermyn Davidson Jermyn Davidson is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: In His Hands
Posts: 13,911
Re: COGIC - Baptism in Jesus Name

The only way to reconcile Romans 10: 4 - 21 and Acts 2: 38 - 42 is to equate salvation with believing-- a faith that leads one to the proper Biblical response.

The proper Biblical response is to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

The infilling of the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in tongues, is not a prerequisite for Biblical salvation. It was never presented in scripture as so.

First of all, the Holy Ghost is the Promise from God to all those who believe on Him.

Salvation is equated with believing many, many times in the New Testament.

Salvation is not equated with speaking in tongues.

If Cornelius had died before experiencing the infilling of the Holy Ghost, would he have gone to hell?

The 3 stepper answer would have to be, "Yes, Cornelius would have gone to hell."

However, it is impossible for me to justify such an answer with scripture.

Acts 13:39 NIV
Through Him (Jesus Christ) everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law.

Acts 13:48 NIV
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the Word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Romans 4: 9 -12 has played a role in my understanding of salvation.

There is more.

But I have a question. Ron Harvey made a ref to some rule where what you see happen in scripture does not have to happen every time in order for a specific concept to be true.

Maybe you can elaborate on that for me-- when I asked him about it, he never responded.

Is there more than one concept in scripture where this is true?
__________________
"The choices we make reveal the true nature of our character."
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 09-23-2008, 11:02 PM
Jermyn Davidson's Avatar
Jermyn Davidson Jermyn Davidson is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: In His Hands
Posts: 13,911
Re: COGIC - Baptism in Jesus Name

Quote:
Originally Posted by PraiseHymn View Post
They say Pastor Simmons died of some type of cancer however rumors say otherwise. All I will say is that we will understand it better by and by if you know what I mean (meaning if wifey dies with this same type of "cancer" then it will be true as far as the rumors....and thats all I can say about that one). To be honest, it just sucks. I've never seen a man rise to fame so quick, was at the mountain top of his ministry and then DIE the way he did. Sad, just sad. (but we did give him a good 2 day homegoing.....one of the best I've been too in years, I'll post a clip of the dancing. I danced myself right into the funeral spray. The morticians were holding me up (pray for me cause I'm a crazy praiser lol)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWfQkgZAyiw




I think in all honesty these men get in where they can fit in. For instance, Huie Rogers came down and preached a revival at Citadel one year, he preached a hardcore Apostolic message, the born and raised COGIC folks were steaming mad. However Nathan Simmons was happy proclaiming that he baptised in "The Name". Then, trinitarians have mounted the podium and preached there God in 3 persons blessed trinity message, and Nathan Simmons just agreed right along with them. So again, I belive they get in where they fit in. People pleasers.

Lizza Pace is with El Bethel, thats Bishop Robert Evans former apostolic organization that he presided over before he died.

Murphy Pace is the only brother of the Pace Sisters (which includes LaShun Pace). The Pace's mother and father have a "old school" cogic church somewhere here in Georgia. They all are preachers kids.

The COGIC tolerate women preachers however they dont put them in the offices of Bishop. They limit them to Evangelist however they do recognize that there are women that are in pastorial roles (though far and few). Kinda like a "see no evil hear no evil" sort of doctrine.

Citadel has not changed there myspace page in a long time. Its a known fact they are not COGIC anymore.

The preacher speaking in the video-- I recognize his voice. Who is he?


I have never seen so many Black folk run the aisles like that! Besides my Dad, I had only seen that phenomenon in UPCI and one AOG church (Jimmy Swaggart's).

But I freely admit that at 31 I haven't seen everything yet....
__________________
"The choices we make reveal the true nature of our character."
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 09-23-2008, 11:20 PM
PraiseHymn's Avatar
PraiseHymn PraiseHymn is offline
Saved And Sanctified Since 1992


 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Durham, NC (Born and raised in NYC)
Posts: 375
Re: COGIC - Baptism in Jesus Name

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1399 View Post
The preacher speaking in the video-- I recognize his voice. Who is he?


I have never seen so many Black folk run the aisles like that! Besides my Dad, I had only seen that phenomenon in UPCI and one AOG church (Jimmy Swaggart's).

But I freely admit that at 31 I haven't seen everything yet....
You never seen running like that? Wow. Have you ever gone to any other Pentecostal Church service before. Lord knows every single one (in the black church) I go to always have church like that. Its what we call having "crazy" church. Lately its been a phenomenon where homegoings are better than Sunday morning worship with baptisms being held and tarry services all the while funeralizing the dead. yup. Come to my church then. You'll see running like that alllllllllllllll the time. The voice is that of Bishop Mr. "Clean" White. Famous COGIC pastor down here in Atlanta.
__________________
….and since Jesus Christ is the Almighty God, we cannot be defeated!
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 09-23-2008, 11:58 PM
Jermyn Davidson's Avatar
Jermyn Davidson Jermyn Davidson is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: In His Hands
Posts: 13,911
Re: COGIC - Baptism in Jesus Name

Quote:
Originally Posted by PraiseHymn View Post
The voice is that of Bishop Mr. "Clean" White. Famous COGIC pastor down here in Atlanta.

Song goes something like,

"I had a talk with Jesus just the other day.
I asked Him what He wanted and He told me sacrifice.
Just like it was when we first met years and years ago,
All He wanted was the original yes so I told Him yes Lord"

Didn't he help lead that song?
__________________
"The choices we make reveal the true nature of our character."
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is Grace Conferred Through Jesus Name Baptism? Scott Hutchinson Deep Waters 26 10-11-2010 07:44 AM
Why Jesus Name Baptism Is Important . Scott Hutchinson Deep Waters 7 09-21-2010 10:33 AM
PAW and COGIC Merger? Sam Fellowship Hall 38 11-12-2007 10:43 AM
Accepting Him or Rejecting Him; Jesus Name Baptism and Pentecostal Trinity Churches stmatthew Deep Waters 79 03-15-2007 12:42 PM
Baptist & COGIC: God is Reaching Beyond our Walls! Steadfast Fellowship Hall 24 03-05-2007 12:18 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Salome
- by Salome

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.