Billy Graham

[Evang.Benincasa]

In God’s hands?

Yes, it is called the Bible.

We either are preaching the truth or not preaching the truth.

So, we shouldn’t be vague about wether old Billy boy made heaven his home.

He either made it or not.

If we PUSH Acts 2:38 as salvation and that cowboy didn’t even get that straight.

Then as an Apostolic believer I shouldn’t be timidly throwing it in God’s lap. You guys either believe you are preaching Bible truth or your not. If you aren’t sure whether a Baptist made it without Acts 2:38, then he isn’t the one you should be worried about. Because it seems you may have your own doubts.

[consapente89]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

In God’s hands?

Yes, it is called the Bible.

We either are preaching the truth or not preaching the truth.

So, we shouldn’t be vague about wether old Billy boy made heaven his home.

He either made it or not.

If we PUSH Acts 2:38 as salvation and that cowboy didn’t even get that straight.

Then as an Apostolic believer I shouldn’t be timidly throwing it in God’s lap. You guys either believe you are preaching Bible truth or your not. If you aren’t sure whether a Baptist made it without Acts 2:38, then he isn’t the one you should be worried about. Because it seems you may have your own doubts.

Without wavering in my absolute conviction that Acts 2:38 is the new birth and absolutely necessary to see the Kingdom of God, I think that there are times when it is just best to be silent about someone's eternity.

God bless you Elder B. I know you took up for me recently so i'm not trying to .

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

If the above is true? Then Heaven must be one absolute mess.

God is in absolute control. And I trust that whatever God desires to do entirely His prerogative. Why would Heaven be a mess if God alone were the final authority in determining a man's eternal destiny?

[JamesGlen]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

In God’s hands?

Yes, it is called the Bible.

We either are preaching the truth or not preaching the truth.

So, we shouldn’t be vague about wether old Billy boy made heaven his home.

He either made it or not.

If we PUSH Acts 2:38 as salvation and that cowboy didn’t even get that straight.

Then as an Apostolic believer I shouldn’t be timidly throwing it in God’s lap. You guys either believe you are preaching Bible truth or your not. If you aren’t sure whether a Baptist made it without Acts 2:38, then he isn’t the one you should be worried about. Because it seems you may have your own doubts.

None of us are sure if he made it outside of our personal understanding of Acts 2:38, including you . (as there is even disunity regarding it’s exact interpretation amongst Christianity)

We do wise to trust in Him and His redemptive work, more than our own.

[Michael The Disciple]

I always liked Billy Graham. Early on in my walk I mentioned to a Charismatic minister I thought Billy was a Prophet. In return he said to me. He's not even fully saved. He explained by saying At Pentecost Peter said we must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sins and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

After that I began to see it in a different light. I know this. If Billy was a faithful minister of the gospel I am a heretic.

[JamesGlen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I always liked Billy Graham. Early on in my walk I mentioned to a Charismatic minister I thought Billy was a Prophet. In return he said to me. He's not even fully saved. He explained by saying At Pentecost Peter said we must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sins and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

After that I began to see it in a different light. I know this. If Billy was a faithful minister of the gospel I am a heretic.

“Fully Saved”? How can one be half-saved?


Maybe he did not fullfill your understanding of Acts 2:38, but fullfilled his understanding of Acts 2:38. We do wise to personally trust in Christ’s redemptive work on the cross for our salvation, and not our own redemptive work.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Chris honestly, you don't have to be nicer than Jesus. Originalist in a kind way made a good post "he (Billy Graham) certainly had an ability to persuade people of their need of a Savior." Fine, we move along, acknowledging that one point. Yet, we don't wish him into heaven by assuming that he had some special relationship outside of Biblical truth.

I believe it is one thing to say that someone didn't believe in, know, or understand the fullness of what we believed to be biblical truth. It is entirely another to assume or desire their damnation. We do well to give the eternal judgment of a soul to God and to God alone.

Some might say, "What about the Bible? The Bible says...."

Ever notice that no one ever says, "Look, my interpretation of the Bible is wrong. I suggest you look into..." Everyone believes that their understanding of the Bible is absolutely true.

There are over 41,000 different denominations of Christianity in the United States alone. Each has a different "interpretation" of the Bible. Each one believes that their "interpretation" of the Bible is absolutely correct and that all others are wrong. Of course, we Apostolics are among them. We whole heartedly believe that our interpretation of the Bible is absolutely correct. But even among us there isn't absolute unity on what the Bible means on every given point. Therefore, to base one's entire faith upon a single interpretation of Scripture, and use that interpretation as a lense through which to measure others and their salvation, is to have one's faith adrift on the sea of subjective human interpretation.

While the Bible is absolutely infallible. Our understanding of it is not. Therefore, I choose to embrace the only objective reality of Scripture... there is indeed a God. And while I believe that my understanding of the Bible is more correct than many others, I am aware that my understanding of Scripture isn't perfect. But God is perfect. God is merciful. God is loving. God is just. God is also sovereign. And God alone is every man's judge. I do not wish that anyone go to Hell. And so, regarding those who pass on who do not know the Scripture as I do, I pray that God have mercy. For that is all I can do. In fact, with regards to all men, even those we might consider the most "doctrinally pure", there is no hope of salvation without God's mercy. One can dot every I and cross every T as it relates to "doctrine"... and that doesn't guarantee a thing.

The saints who make it to Heaven will only make it on account of God's mercy. And His mercy is only acquired through knowing Him. Even those who obeys Acts 2:38 in the manner that we believe it is to be obeyed must know God personally.

I knew an old saint of God who used to pray and read his Bible every day. His wife had passed on, and I think even his kids had passed on. He'd sit in his rocking chair, rocking back and forth on the front porch, praying on most afternoons. We visited him because his health was beginning to fail and he wasn't able to attend church all the time. As I talked to him, I realized that some of his "theology" wasn't very refined. While talking to this older man, I tried to talk doctrine with him, and he'd look at me kind of strange. At one point, he said, "I don't know as much about the Bible as some men do. But, I know Jesus. He's my everything. And that's enough for me." When he said that, the Holy Ghost moved on me so strong. I realized that he truly knew God.

That experience taught me something. To know God is far different from knowing everything about Him. In fact, it is possible to know almost everything about God and not know Him personally. And, it is also possible to know God personally without knowing everything about Him.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I always liked Billy Graham. Early on in my walk I mentioned to a Charismatic minister I thought Billy was a Prophet. In return he said to me. He's not even fully saved. He explained by saying At Pentecost Peter said we must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sins and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

After that I began to see it in a different light. I know this. If Billy was a faithful minister of the gospel I am a heretic.

Who says so? Why must it be as you say? We all agree that the way God saves people is "by washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost". Water baptism is a step towards that regeneration of the Spirit. But what if God regenerates people, working around the limitations of the doctrine of the church where they gave their life to Christ? In other words, what if God gives people his Spirit in Baptist churches but withholds tongues because of the unbelief of the Baptist elders? Everyone who goes to Heaven will go there having missed out on some blessing God intended for them to have while they lived on Earth. Why are tongues any different?

What if God considers all baptisms done "for Christ's sake" (or, because one is surrendering their life to him) as having been done "in the name of Jesus Christ? Instead of making declarations like the one of yours I'm responding to here, why don't we just try to work out our own salvation and ministries, acknowledge the great things God does through people like Graham, and let God take care of it all in the end? Sometimes we act like we will be disappointed if we see people like Graham, Wesley or Spurgeon in Heaven.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I always liked Billy Graham. Early on in my walk I mentioned to a Charismatic minister I thought Billy was a Prophet. In return he said to me. He's not even fully saved. He explained by saying At Pentecost Peter said we must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sins and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

After that I began to see it in a different light. I know this. If Billy was a faithful minister of the gospel I am a heretic.

I think it is important to define "faithful minister". Do we mean a man who was faithful to all he understood regarding the Christian faith, faithful to his wife, faithful to his children, faithful to his church? Being "faithful" doesn't really have anything to do with doctrine. I know men who are probably far more Apostolic in doctrine than Bill Graham ever was, yet I'd not classify them as "faithful" ministers.

The term heretic gets thrown around a lot. But I believe that if you look into the way the term heretic and heresy is used in Scripture, you'll notice that it involves denying the divinity of Christ, doting questions and legalistic strivings about the law, the denial of the Christian's walk in grace, Jewish fables, and lascivious living.

Both Trinitarianism and Oneness affirms Christ's divinity. The debate is on how each theological framework explains that divinity. Ibonitism and Dynamic Monarchianism are all examples of Christologies that deny Christ's full divinity. These are heresies. Judaizing sects who return to the keeping of the Torah, even imposing such on gentiles, are also teaching heresy. Cults that embrace polygamy, perversion, etc. are also heresy. As are Adoptionism, Gnosticism, Socinianism, and Pelagianism.

Unless one denies Christ's divinity, retreats into law keeping, embraces the New Age, or descends into using religion as a way to manipulate people into perversion... I typically won't throw the "heretic" label.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Who says so? Why must it be as you say? We all agree that the way God saves people is "by washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost". Water baptism is a step towards that regeneration of the Spirit. But what if God regenerates people, working around the limitations of the doctrine of the church where they gave their life to Christ? In other words, what if God gives people his Spirit in Baptist churches but withholds tongues because of the unbelief of the Baptist elders? Everyone who goes to Heaven will go there having missed out on some blessing God intended for them to have while they lived on Earth. Why are tongues any different?

What if God considers all baptisms done "for Christ's sake" (or, because one is surrendering their life to him) as having been done "in the name of Jesus Christ? Instead of making declarations like the one of yours I'm responding to here, why don't we just try to work out our own salvation and ministries, acknowledge the great things God does through people like Graham, and let God take care of it all in the end? Sometimes we act like we will be disappointed if we see people like Graham, Wesley or Spurgeon in Heaven.

Do you acknowledge the good things God does by the Jehovah Witnesses? The Mormons? The Catholics? If not why?