Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dead?

[Michael The Disciple]

8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor. 5:8

The goal is for the saints to be PRESENT WITH THE LORD.

What Paul said about when we will be present with the Lord to the Corinthians will not vary from what he told the Thessalonians about the very same subject!

And when did he tell the Thessalonians they would BE PRESENT WITH YESHUA?

16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess. 4:16-17

He tells them both they will be PRESENT WITH THE LORD when the second coming of Yeshua takes place and the dead in Christ are resurrected!

Indeed if he meant to imply that as soon as we die we are THEN present with the Lord he would have been telling something DIFFERENT to the Thessalonians for to them he said they will ever be with him AT THE RESURRECTION!

It becomes obvious that Pauls meaning to the Corinthians was NOT the one espoused by todays Bible teachers and students.

[Michael The Disciple]

Here is more proof.

When will we receive eternal life?

28: Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29: And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30: But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. Mark 10:28-30

Eternal life is granted IN THE WORLD TO COME.

Guess what? That world has not yet come.

[Michael The Disciple]

When did the Lord Jesus Christ say he would raise up his saints?

39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41: The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42: And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43: Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:39-44

The WHEN is very clear from his words. At the LAST DAY!

This certainly agrees with the teachings of Paul who taught immortality would be given the saints at the second coming.

So now that we know the WHEN how about the WHAT? What did Jesus say he would raise up at the last day?

Just a body? A thousand times no!

He states I will raise HIM up at the last day!

HIM signifies the PERSON. Not just their body.

Note he did NOT say "I will raise HIS BODY up. No it was "I will raise HIM up".

So now we have both the WHEN and the WHAT. Our foundation is getting stronger.

I am more than just my body.

Another verse from the same chapter and context confirms the WHEN AND THE WHAT!

54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

[Daniel12]

crakjak

Originally Posted by crakjak

Excellent observation, the elect enter an age of aionion life, the sinner enters an age of aionion punishment. Then all "bow and confess" Jesus as Lord, Jesus submits His sonship to the Father, God is then "all in all". The creation is all made new, the New Heaven and New Earth. We were made to have a physical body and live in a physical earth, the whole cosmos is now in right relationship with the Creator. No more curse, death, or hell (grave).

I'm not sure exactly sure if I understand you're meaning here, but when the scripture says that sonship is concluded, I understand that to mean that everything the Messiah was destined to do will be completed at that time -when the bride enters the New Jerusalem, the eternal city where the Lamb provides the light. There is no redeeming or restorative work to be done after the white throne judgment (the bema seat), and all who are cast into the lake of fire and brimstone will be there permanently; there is no hope of being redeemed from that place at all as I understand the scriptures.
_____________________

Michael, I'm not very familiar with the teachings of soul sleep, but death is always likened to sleep from what I can see; very often it's translated as rest as we pointed out above. I'll have to look at some of the other threads here to see what's meant by "soul sleep" to see what scriptures people are using and what they mean by that term

Daniel12

[Michael The Disciple]

Let us examine some teaching on resurrection. Paul gives almost a whole chapter of truth about this subject in 1 Cor.15

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Cor. 15: 12-18

Paul mantains in this chapter that the dead are ASLEEP. In other words dead. That is the point of resurrection.
Verse 18 points out that if there is NO RESURRECTION the dead Christians were perished! If they were already rejoicing in heaven with eternal life Paul couldnt say this.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul now says that CHRIST was the firstfruits of them that SLEPT. Of all that had ever died he was the FIRST TO COME BACK TO LIFE.

Verse 22 tells us there is only life or death. Every person is either dead or alive. He says IN CHRIST all shall be MADE ALIVE. In other words the dead Christians are not alive but they will be MADE ALIVE!

When will this happen? Verse 23 says AT HIS COMING.

The dead in Christ will be resurrected and given immortality AT THE SECOND COMING not before.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Paul makes it clear. Not all saints will die (sleep). But those who died will be raised at THE LAST TRUMP. The Second coming.

A very important fact about this chapter.

Not one time is a doctrine presented that would give the saints immortality or eternal life BEFORE THE RESURRECTION!

There are 58 verses in this "resurrection chapter". And thats what is taught throughout!

The entire chapter of 58 verses teaches that when men die they "sleep" until the second coming and resurrection and not a word about "instant bliss around the throne".

[Michael The Disciple]

Michael, I'm not very familiar with the teachings of soul sleep, but death is always likened to sleep from what I can see; very often it's translated as rest as we pointed out above. I'll have to look at some of the other threads here to see what's meant by "soul sleep" to see what scriptures people are using and what they mean by that term

Daniel12

Its a term that is kind of forced upon us because people have corrupted the teaching on the resurrection from the dead. If we say we believe in the resurrection as one of the primary foundation doctrines men confuse the issue by trying to make it into merely the "resurrection of the body".

When I speak of "soul sleep" it means that man is a soul, a person, or a life. When he dies he ceases to live until he is given eternal life by Christ at his coming.

It is in oppostion to the error that men already have an immortal soul that must always live somewhere.

Resurrection is THE HOPE of the Christian not their death bringing them immortality. Thats why the one is mentioned throughout 58 verses of 1 Corinthians 15 and the other is NEVER mentioned.

Thats why Paul said to comfort our loved ones with the hope they will rise from the dead when Jesus comes and NEVER mentions them being alive in Heaven in 1 Thess chapter 4.

[Michael The Disciple]

The Matter of Rewards

If indeed the dead are alive in the bliss of heaven they have been unfulfilled there some of them for several thousand years! Why? For one thing they havent yet been judged. For another they havent yet been given their reward.

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Rev.11:17-19



We see here the dead are not judged or rewarded until the seventh angel of Revelation sounds. So what have the dead been doing all these hundreds of years? The answer is they have been "asleep".

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers FELL ASLEEP, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 2 Peter 3:3-4

The problem in understanding this truth is when people try to base what they believe on visions and parables instead of PLAIN SOUND DOCTRINE taught to the churches by the apostles. If we reconcile the visions and parables back to the sound instruction of the apostles instead of the other way around we will find the truth.

Not that the visions are not true. They certainly are. But sometimes their meaning can be highly symbolic. Therefore if they concern issues of foundation doctrines they are best understood through the interpetations given by the Spirit to his apostles.

[mfblume]

I was given this question many times. My opinion has always been as follows. The fact is that God created man with spirit, soul and body. God is a SPIRIT, and has not a body. For that reason God was manifest in flesh to redeem man from sin. And God created Adam to rule a physical earth in a physical body. So, creation of our physique is for the purpose of relating to a physical world that we might physically influence. Even God had to manifest in Flesh to save mankind. Why did God have to do that?

I claim that God created man to rule the physical as much as He rules the Heaven. Man is indeed the image of God. And since the physical is indeed physical, man must be physical in order to do this.

Also, knowing that God fills us with His Spirit, as much as he required Adam to ingest LIFE from the tree of life, God requires our bodies to use for HIS PURPOSE in working THROUGH and WITH US as we rule in this earth.

The reason there is a physical resurrection is because man in a physical body was meant to rule the earth, and that plan was never abandoned simply because man lost his dominion and fell into sin. Through Christ this dominion is restored, and our mortal bodies are dealt with through the provision of the cross to render them immortal when the time comes.

[Daniel12]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The entire chapter of 58 verses teaches that when men die they "sleep" until the second coming and resurrection and not a word about "instant bliss around the throne".

Yes, and that's what we find in the OT too. Death is called rest, and there's no teaching in either testament of believers being taken to heaven at death. This subject (the resurrection) is also the main one to show that there's only one second coming of Christ and there's only one first resurrection. Any other interpretation will have to violate the meaning of the words.

BTW, it's interesting to note that when man sinned it was his body that paid the price for the sin with death. But his spirit nevertheless remains intact beyond death, even while the body decayed to its elements. In the resurrection we will be restored to bodies that can't decay. They're called spiritual bodies, not because they're spirit alone, but because like spirits, they'll never decay again. Redeemed humanity will be immortal...with bodies that are just as physical as the ones we occupy now (although I don't see many detail about them in scripture) that will never die again.

Daniel12

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If we immediately travel to Heaven upon death,worshipping at the throne of Elohim in full awareness why would there need to be a RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD?

Is it not true if you were alive before Yeshua you would not be dead?

The foundation doctrines of Hebrews six includes the resurrection of THE DEAD. So the dead evidently will be RESURRECTED. Is this not the HOPE OF THE CHRISTIAN?

24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the Way which they call a sect, so serve I the God of our fathers, believing all things which are according to the law, and which are written in the prophets; 24:15 having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:14-15 ASV

It is striking that Hebrews six speaks nothing of the doctrine of eternal life APART FROM the resurrection of the dead.

Why should we be HOPING for a resurrection if we actually gain eternal life when we die?

If this is true the great hope of the Saints should be their own death!

The Resurrection or the first resurrection/rapture, is where we receive our glorified bodies.